As Condor pilots have fine-tuned their skills over the past years, it seems that competition tasks have become more and more challenging and less and less realistic. This thought led me to consider what things occur regularly in Condor tasks that would never be seen in RL. Here's my list. Feel free to add your own ideas:
1. High winds in general and high crosswind takeoffs in particular. My RL limit is certainly less than 25 kts, probably more like 15.
2. Mountain top turn points.
3. Crossing high mountain ranges. Flying the valleys is the norm in RL.
4. Cloud flying in mountains. Cloud flying in most countries.
5. Tasks over terrain that provides no place for an outlanding.
6. Average thermals in excess of 4kts/2m/s except in select desert areas.
7. Strong thermals with no turbulence. In general, most Condor tasks simulate stronger thermals and weaker turbulence than RL.
8. Night flying.
I'm sure there are more items that can be added to this list and I'm certainly guilty of designing and hosting tasks that incorporate many of these items. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone, just hoping to open a discussion that may ultimately result in ideas for better Condor tasks.
Things You Wouldn't Do in Real Life
Number 6, I have seen UK days with with thermals averaging better than 4kts & plenty of 4kt days. I think European pilots a bit further south than the UK will report better averages. I guess there is a temptation in Condor to fly in good conditions because you can set the weather rather than having to set a task suitable to the weather you get, although I do enjoy challenging conditions ... but not all the time.
Number 7 is one I totally agree with, even weak thermals at the end of the day have a bit of life in RL. I have flown Condor tasks with strong thermals that are completely smooth & lifeless, for me in RL feeling the power in a strong thermal makes it something to remember... also you cant have thermals without turbulence.
Number 8, if by night flying you mean late finishes then I suppose its the only way in Condor to make the conditions on task deteriorate & the day eventually die, hopefully V2 will bring some 'weather' to add into tasks.
Crossing high mountain ridges, high TP's etc are there because we can do it without the danger, it may not be realistic in a task but then it adds a bit of fun
A couple more,
Tasks that finish at a different airfield, not realistic but it does cover more terrain bearing in mind the average Condor task is rather short.
Final glide over high ground within 10km of finish line.
Don't think I mind the 'fantasy' tasks but wouldn't like to see all task setting go down that route, there needs to be a balance. You also have consider that some people are 'arcade' flyers & others want to carry on gliding RL fashion when they cant go to the airfield.
Number 7 is one I totally agree with, even weak thermals at the end of the day have a bit of life in RL. I have flown Condor tasks with strong thermals that are completely smooth & lifeless, for me in RL feeling the power in a strong thermal makes it something to remember... also you cant have thermals without turbulence.
Number 8, if by night flying you mean late finishes then I suppose its the only way in Condor to make the conditions on task deteriorate & the day eventually die, hopefully V2 will bring some 'weather' to add into tasks.
Crossing high mountain ridges, high TP's etc are there because we can do it without the danger, it may not be realistic in a task but then it adds a bit of fun
A couple more,
Tasks that finish at a different airfield, not realistic but it does cover more terrain bearing in mind the average Condor task is rather short.
Final glide over high ground within 10km of finish line.
Don't think I mind the 'fantasy' tasks but wouldn't like to see all task setting go down that route, there needs to be a balance. You also have consider that some people are 'arcade' flyers & others want to carry on gliding RL fashion when they cant go to the airfield.
100% agree with you on all the above, except maybe cloudflying in flatlands, in the UK it's legal so i think condor gives a chance to practice this in competition situations (although i can see no real benefit to it unless no max start alt or a huge blue gap in front of you cloud flying in condor i think is much more difficult in r/l).
Task setting in condor is as you know not easy, different sceneries produce different results with the same weather settings, what equals low activity can trigger something more like high in another.
turbulence i normally leave at moderate, weak or stronger i think are both unrealistic.When setting a task as i have seen with quite a few of yours I also personally try to offer pilots a choice of routes, safe but not as fast, slightly faster but not quite as safe, and a fast but risky route. This leaves the choices down to the pilots flying the task, rather than dictating that they fly a dangerous route.
Mountain ranges can provide a challenge if the weather is set well enough to make it safe.
Unlandable terrain in condor is pretty rare except maybe provence and one or two more sceneries where trees out number landing places, but this is down to pilot choice i think. In condor pilots make most of the time high risk choices and choose riskier paths to tp's than in r/l. It's their choice to take that route, but as i said i try and set them so there are alternate safer ways to take a TP.
As you said the majority of tasks tend to be strong conditions but very weak turbulence or crazy wind speeds to make fast ridge tasks.
One of the things i like to look at is r/l weather for the area i set a task in at any given time if the year, plenty of resources available for it. This helps you set as close to r/l conditions as the time of year you set the task.
so my steps are.
1. Choose the secenery
2. Choose a realistic weather setting.
3. Create the task based on the above.
exactly like you would in r/l.
hope this helps contribute a bit.
Task setting in condor is as you know not easy, different sceneries produce different results with the same weather settings, what equals low activity can trigger something more like high in another.
turbulence i normally leave at moderate, weak or stronger i think are both unrealistic.When setting a task as i have seen with quite a few of yours I also personally try to offer pilots a choice of routes, safe but not as fast, slightly faster but not quite as safe, and a fast but risky route. This leaves the choices down to the pilots flying the task, rather than dictating that they fly a dangerous route.
Mountain ranges can provide a challenge if the weather is set well enough to make it safe.
Unlandable terrain in condor is pretty rare except maybe provence and one or two more sceneries where trees out number landing places, but this is down to pilot choice i think. In condor pilots make most of the time high risk choices and choose riskier paths to tp's than in r/l. It's their choice to take that route, but as i said i try and set them so there are alternate safer ways to take a TP.
As you said the majority of tasks tend to be strong conditions but very weak turbulence or crazy wind speeds to make fast ridge tasks.
One of the things i like to look at is r/l weather for the area i set a task in at any given time if the year, plenty of resources available for it. This helps you set as close to r/l conditions as the time of year you set the task.
so my steps are.
1. Choose the secenery
2. Choose a realistic weather setting.
3. Create the task based on the above.
exactly like you would in r/l.
hope this helps contribute a bit.
Last edited by Tom on Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Very good discussion point, congratulation!
The only point I disagree (partially) is point 6. It depends very of the location, here in Brazil, for example, it is not uncommon to fly X-country with average of 3-3,5m/s in certain locations, mainly there where the championships are held. In big countries, like the US and Brasil, there are so many meteorological differences between places that it is hard to affirm a general rule.
Cya and keep the ideas and other points coming on this discussion
The only point I disagree (partially) is point 6. It depends very of the location, here in Brazil, for example, it is not uncommon to fly X-country with average of 3-3,5m/s in certain locations, mainly there where the championships are held. In big countries, like the US and Brasil, there are so many meteorological differences between places that it is hard to affirm a general rule.
Cya and keep the ideas and other points coming on this discussion
René
Team Brasil
PT-REP
Team Brasil
PT-REP
More Ideas for Better Tasks
Allow enough time so that late joiners have the same opportunity for a fair start as those who join early. For Regatta type tasks allowing enough time usually means a longer "start in" time.
For most tasks, a maximum start altitude should be specified. For tasks without a maximum start altitude, there should be a cloud penalty. It may also be a good idea to specify maximum start altitude somewhat below cloud base so as not to tempt pilots to enter cloud to get a good start and to make getting an equal start more likely for everyone.
If the start of a task and the finish of a task are at the same point, it's frequently hard to read maximum start altitude on the PDA. As a result, there are continuous requests for TASKINFO. Separate start and finish points a little and encourage pilots to use the PDA.
Try to design a final glide so that it won't be flown for 20 minutes at Vne.
NO TRICKS. Unless you're into arcade games, don't design a task that contains hot spots only you and your friends know about or that requires full spoilers and a dive at flutter speed to go from one TP to the next.
If mountain top turn points must be used, make the radius large enough so that the TP can be rounded without having to climb to the peak or above cloud. Give options for rounding.
These are just some of my ideas. They may not all be good. Let's hear your thoughts.
For most tasks, a maximum start altitude should be specified. For tasks without a maximum start altitude, there should be a cloud penalty. It may also be a good idea to specify maximum start altitude somewhat below cloud base so as not to tempt pilots to enter cloud to get a good start and to make getting an equal start more likely for everyone.
If the start of a task and the finish of a task are at the same point, it's frequently hard to read maximum start altitude on the PDA. As a result, there are continuous requests for TASKINFO. Separate start and finish points a little and encourage pilots to use the PDA.
Try to design a final glide so that it won't be flown for 20 minutes at Vne.
NO TRICKS. Unless you're into arcade games, don't design a task that contains hot spots only you and your friends know about or that requires full spoilers and a dive at flutter speed to go from one TP to the next.
If mountain top turn points must be used, make the radius large enough so that the TP can be rounded without having to climb to the peak or above cloud. Give options for rounding.
These are just some of my ideas. They may not all be good. Let's hear your thoughts.
You've reminded me of a question I've been meaning to ask for some time: "How to design realistic tasks?" A list of pointers/tips would be great, if it hasn't been done already. Certainly, the suggestion to check actual local weather is good, and has occurred to me, but what about all the other weather settings? I tend to make everything "average", or nearly so, but is that realistic? What about temperature, dewpoint, cloudbase, etc.?
I'm a noob at Condor, and in RL, a noob at cross-country. I flew gliders many years ago, but never did any CC. I was quite surprised at how easy I found the modest tasks I set for myself, but don't know if that is some unrealistic shortcoming in the sim, or just lack of knowledge about how tasks should be designed. I certainly want to make them realistic, so that I know I'm achieving something which mirrors RL as closely as possible. I'm not too interested in the fantasy type of task, as fun as they may be.
I've been saving all the SC tasks I see posted, plus a couple others, but haven't yet tried to fly any. Actually, I've not been flying at all for the last couple of weeks, because my motherboard died, and I'm still waiting for my new parts to arrive for rebuild.
I've also thought about getting in on either the SC or MNS events, but thinking that I don't know enough about proper procedures to just wade in. Like many things, that may be the best way to do it, though.
I'm a noob at Condor, and in RL, a noob at cross-country. I flew gliders many years ago, but never did any CC. I was quite surprised at how easy I found the modest tasks I set for myself, but don't know if that is some unrealistic shortcoming in the sim, or just lack of knowledge about how tasks should be designed. I certainly want to make them realistic, so that I know I'm achieving something which mirrors RL as closely as possible. I'm not too interested in the fantasy type of task, as fun as they may be.
I've been saving all the SC tasks I see posted, plus a couple others, but haven't yet tried to fly any. Actually, I've not been flying at all for the last couple of weeks, because my motherboard died, and I'm still waiting for my new parts to arrive for rebuild.
I've also thought about getting in on either the SC or MNS events, but thinking that I don't know enough about proper procedures to just wade in. Like many things, that may be the best way to do it, though.
Well, i agree to most of the points mentioned above,
and would like to add one:
Flying unrealistic high speeds at ridges or at final glide
A little example:
I was on final glide at a SBC-Task in New Zealand, flying along a ridge
with about 210 Km/H. Vra (max Velocity in rough air) of my ASW27 is 215 KM/h.
So i think that speed i took is the maximum i would fly in RL.
Then someone overtook me with his LS10 at that same ridge.
A quick F8-view told me he was flying at a speed of over 270 KM/h
very close to the ridge.
In RL his Plane would be overstressed
and surely this would lead into a crash.
But the result was an advantage of some minutes in task time for him.
I think final glides with Vne and flying directly through a 3m-Thermal
is also very unrealistic, because it would lead into a crash too.
Maybe some changes in the Condor-Damage-Model regarding Vra
could improve the realism of the Simulation.
But this is only my personal view of that point.
Y8
and would like to add one:
Flying unrealistic high speeds at ridges or at final glide
A little example:
I was on final glide at a SBC-Task in New Zealand, flying along a ridge
with about 210 Km/H. Vra (max Velocity in rough air) of my ASW27 is 215 KM/h.
So i think that speed i took is the maximum i would fly in RL.
Then someone overtook me with his LS10 at that same ridge.
A quick F8-view told me he was flying at a speed of over 270 KM/h
very close to the ridge.
In RL his Plane would be overstressedand surely this would lead into a crash.
But the result was an advantage of some minutes in task time for him.
I think final glides with Vne and flying directly through a 3m-Thermal
is also very unrealistic, because it would lead into a crash too.
Maybe some changes in the Condor-Damage-Model regarding Vra
could improve the realism of the Simulation.
But this is only my personal view of that point.
Y8
Hmmm...and where is the F8 button in RL?Y8 wrote:...A quick F8-view...
Just teasing Y8, I agree with your point completely! I would be inclined to fly as you do.
I recall an answer to a question I posed about final glide DDH...it was something like, "In real life, you would start final glide with some reasonable DDH value, but in Condor, everybody makes it = 0m."
I couldnt agree more. I think things are perfect as they are tbh. SBC, AcesHigh etc all offer realistic tasks where you have to make good decisions, on the other hand if you just want to bimble around a small triangle or want to blitz a task at 10000kph then you can do that on personally hosted servers on the top part of the serverlist.Don't think I mind the 'fantasy' tasks but wouldn't like to see all task setting go down that route, there needs to be a balance. You also have consider that some people are 'arcade' flyers & others want to carry on gliding RL fashion when they cant go to the airfield.
There seems to me to be enough variation already but
there is a limit to how realistic you can make a task with such a simplistic weather 'model'..
After all it is just a game, keeping everybody happy and entertained should be just as important, as hard as it may be
J.Davidson
CN: R6
Location: UK
CN: R6
Location: UK
-
TimKuijpers
- Posts: 3214
- Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:33 am
- Location: The Netherlands
I fully agree with Jono, just execute your own thoughts and see how the community responds.
We all heard eachothers opinions for so many times now, I can allready guess what Jack, 22, Tom, and myself have to say about these subjects.
If in the end we find 200 pilots flying SC, and ony 50 at SBC, we know enough.
But as it is now it seems that there is a question for both kind of competitions.
We all heard eachothers opinions for so many times now, I can allready guess what Jack, 22, Tom, and myself have to say about these subjects..
So I'll leave my opinion in the middle
We all heard eachothers opinions for so many times now, I can allready guess what Jack, 22, Tom, and myself have to say about these subjects.
If in the end we find 200 pilots flying SC, and ony 50 at SBC, we know enough.
But as it is now it seems that there is a question for both kind of competitions.
We all heard eachothers opinions for so many times now, I can allready guess what Jack, 22, Tom, and myself have to say about these subjects..
So I'll leave my opinion in the middle
Think positive, flaps negative.
Interesting topic Jack...... things I think about being a RL XC pilot first, and a Condor pilot second.
I'd like to see a speed penalty added for starting tasks at Vne for example - this is inherently unsafe and is enforced at some competitions. Maybe we could make ours 120kts (220km/h)?
If I look back to the last few months of my own online racing experience, I'd have to say the task setters earning most recognition in my view are those who are forcing pilots to be more strategic about how they fly - not just barrelling along at 110kts all day long. Problem is, the weather is so consistent it's really hard to slow the good guys down....when you achieve that then many of the others can't even finish the task...latest SB tasks a case in point.
If I set a Condor task I have to fly it a few times to tweak the settings to get what I want out of it; other guys know the sceneries that well now they don't need to.
There will always be a place for arcade style tasks, but less than 100km is best I think for entertainment. I think the larger majority of pilots will follow the competition that most closely resembles what we find in RL XC racing or task flying......maybe Andreas & Stefan are testing the limits of this to tweak the next SBC (BB is watching)
Response to some of Bulau's comments:
Modest tasks in Condor seem a lot easier than in RL...that's because there's a VERY different psychology going on between sitting at your PC and being a low time XC pilot out of gliding range of the airfield for the first time and getting low!
Final glides in RL. If you're still 60-80km out you might start fg at 300-400m under fg and pull up in lift or find good air along the way or a corker thermal above Mc setting...all about probability. The weather and thermal modelling in Condor doesn't really provide for this because you don't have large areas of slowly rising or sinking air, streeting, etc. I've played around a bit and the most you seem to gain out of simply pulling up in lift and then accelerating again seems to be 150-200' per good thermal, and the areas of convective lift are relatively small. If you could see 6 clouds ahead the next 30km it might only mean 600-700' in pull-ups.
If on the other hand you were 60km out and knew you were climbing in the last late afternoon thermal you'd make sure you had fg and then some. Or where I fly you might fly into a seabreeze 30km from home so from having a tailwind with lots of thermals around suddenly there's a 10kt headwind and zero lift - you'd then need fg + some reserve.
I'd like to see a speed penalty added for starting tasks at Vne for example - this is inherently unsafe and is enforced at some competitions. Maybe we could make ours 120kts (220km/h)?
If I look back to the last few months of my own online racing experience, I'd have to say the task setters earning most recognition in my view are those who are forcing pilots to be more strategic about how they fly - not just barrelling along at 110kts all day long. Problem is, the weather is so consistent it's really hard to slow the good guys down....when you achieve that then many of the others can't even finish the task...latest SB tasks a case in point.
If I set a Condor task I have to fly it a few times to tweak the settings to get what I want out of it; other guys know the sceneries that well now they don't need to.
There will always be a place for arcade style tasks, but less than 100km is best I think for entertainment. I think the larger majority of pilots will follow the competition that most closely resembles what we find in RL XC racing or task flying......maybe Andreas & Stefan are testing the limits of this to tweak the next SBC (BB is watching
)Response to some of Bulau's comments:
Modest tasks in Condor seem a lot easier than in RL...that's because there's a VERY different psychology going on between sitting at your PC and being a low time XC pilot out of gliding range of the airfield for the first time and getting low!
Final glides in RL. If you're still 60-80km out you might start fg at 300-400m under fg and pull up in lift or find good air along the way or a corker thermal above Mc setting...all about probability. The weather and thermal modelling in Condor doesn't really provide for this because you don't have large areas of slowly rising or sinking air, streeting, etc. I've played around a bit and the most you seem to gain out of simply pulling up in lift and then accelerating again seems to be 150-200' per good thermal, and the areas of convective lift are relatively small. If you could see 6 clouds ahead the next 30km it might only mean 600-700' in pull-ups.
If on the other hand you were 60km out and knew you were climbing in the last late afternoon thermal you'd make sure you had fg and then some. Or where I fly you might fly into a seabreeze 30km from home so from having a tailwind with lots of thermals around suddenly there's a 10kt headwind and zero lift - you'd then need fg + some reserve.
Agreed, the psychology is a big factor. That's true about people flying at Vne too...you know if your wing breaks off, you're not really going to be in any danger.
But, often, our minds are quite content to play along with us. When I flew the Condor silver badge test, I actually set out with much trepidation, having no RL XC experience. I was even a bit concerned that I might not make it. Once finished, however, there is a new appreciation for just how far even the humble ASK-13 can glide! Something you never really get a feel for flying around the home field all the time.
So, I'm looking to Condor to provide me with that experience I never got in RL, as closely as possible, given the limitations of the sim.
But, often, our minds are quite content to play along with us. When I flew the Condor silver badge test, I actually set out with much trepidation, having no RL XC experience. I was even a bit concerned that I might not make it. Once finished, however, there is a new appreciation for just how far even the humble ASK-13 can glide! Something you never really get a feel for flying around the home field all the time.
So, I'm looking to Condor to provide me with that experience I never got in RL, as closely as possible, given the limitations of the sim.
8.) Until they have a poland scenery with working powerstation chimnies and SZD Bocians with lights, I 100% agree!
EDIT: Deleted my comments on 1,6,7 - Cant be bothered with the arguing..
Until they have a poland scenery with working powerstation chimnies and SZD Bocians with lights, I 100% agree!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0FtADUhJ8k) - Heroes!/BarkingIt was also fitted with navigation lights on the wingtips and fin, presumably so that the Polish glider pilots could get experience in night flying.
EDIT: Deleted my comments on 1,6,7 - Cant be bothered with the arguing..
J.Davidson
CN: R6
Location: UK
CN: R6
Location: UK
