FAI World Series 2023 - CANADA - Unfair changing the task rules and not mentioning it in the briefing

[Snapcase]

I just joined FAI Virtual Gliding Discord and saw this "Rules change"...

In the CC / email there was briefing with information that there is handicap during this task.
During the flight some pilots was suprised that this rule was changed... on Discord with no briefing change.






It's HUGE unfair for me and other that choosed DuoDiscus to gain with handicap.

It was in the briefing , i checked it twice. Made my choice, and after jointime end i saw guys writing on Condor ingame chat that there is no handicap today and this was said on Discord with hoping to be passed to other pilots....


Really? Briefing is the ONLY way to communicate TASK CHANGES to all pilots!

It use CC message and email - and it's necessary to read it because you need the server password!


I should use Discord every time to check "new" briefing? Discord is required to fly FAI events?
And it's required to check it before task start? How many minutes before sever start we should check it? Where it's written?


If you wanted to change it - no problem - but you should resend the briefing - that's the ONLY way to get to all pilots - condor club + email!!



It was to late to do this?

SO JUST USE THE RULES THAT YOU SENT TO ALL!

It will be fair for all - not for those who read your message on discord!



Now in CC it's calculated with Handicap
During the task it was calculated with Handicap
Even your commentaries were talking that the handicap helped ppl to be higher after many ppl finished their tasks..


Now what? You will change the rules in Condor Club and recalculate it?

Really?


That's just UNFAIR, stupid and make no sense.

[wickid]

They have a rule document on the website:

https://www.virtualgliding.fai.org/s/FA ... ok_v11.pdf

It states that the Condor results are not the official results and that the official FAI rules for scoring as they are published on the FAI website are used. I checked this document on the FAI website, and it states that:

Handicapping shall be used in the Club Class and may be used in the 20 metre Multi-seat Class in Continental Gliding Championships only (not in World Gliding Championships). Organisers shall state in the CGC Local Procedures if Handicapping is to be used in the 20 metre Multi-seat Class.

So, they are correct in not applying handicapping. While I agree with you that the briefing should correctly reflect this. These rules were published well in advance on the website and on the official discord. As well as re-stated yesterday on Discord, which is the official communications channel.

I completely understand your frustration, but I don't think you have a strong argument here unfortunately

[Paul_UK]

This is a problem with the CC website, when you upload a task as a 20m class task it defaults to IGC handicap, you cannot select to not apply handicap.

I saw on an FB post that there would be no handicap applied to that task so I assumed that the results would be taken from the results log produced by DSH and presented in order of finish (fastest to slowest) with no handicap applied.

If no handicap is the going to be used for 20m class at times maybe Thierry could update CC to give an option to not take into account handicap.

The way to have gotten around handicap this time would have been set the task as OPEN class but insisted pilots flew either the Duo or Arcus, which could have been in the briefing notes.

[JLN]

Hello,
Wickid, I cannot find the sentence you mentionned in the pilot's handbook v1.1. May be it's another document. I have seen that I cannot use drugs or alcohol or use my cellphone while flying but I cannot find indications on glider's handicap except in "Distance Handicap Task."

I am not on the discord forum and have find no mention of it as an official information source on the world series fai virtual gliding site.
All that just to say that when I receive the briefing by mail and on the condorclub site I think all is correct.

I agree with Paul's suggestion. A note could also have said clearly not to take into account the handicapped scoring which was wrong in the briefing.

All that does not change anything for me : I do not compete with the best pilots for winning. My first goal is to finish. And take pleasure flying. And I have no Arcus....
Now just waiting for the publication of the second race on the official site.
Regards
Jean-Luc

[wickid]

It is in Annex A of the FAI rules for world and continental championships. It is the official document they refer to for scoring in the rules document. You can find it on the FAI website.

https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/sc3a_2022.pdf

[JLN]

Thanks a lot for your reply

So if I understand correctly for all next races, if the class is club the handicap will be in use and for all other classes there will be no handicap. As they are not mentionned in the sentence as "shall" or "may" there will be no handicap.
Am I correct ?
regards
Jean-Luc

[wickid]

Thanks a lot for your reply

So if I understand correctly for all next races, if the class is club the handicap will be in use and for all other classes there will be no handicap. As they are not mentionned in the sentence as "shall" or "may" there will be no handicap.
Am I correct ?
regards
Jean-Luc

I think that is correct. The handicaps on Condor Club also come from the list in this annex.

[JLN]

Thank you very much for your reply
It could have been simple If we are right on this point to note in the "Competition detail" : "No handicap will be used except in club class"

But the Annex A to Section 3 is a 55 pages complex document. So what will be the next rule to be applied ? I just saw that the Minimum Distance for 1000 points for Standard, 15 Metre, 20 Metre Multi-seat class is 300 km. So the last race result should have to be changed or the rule is not applied or I am wrong.

It seems not easy to apply RL rules to a an online competition. And I do not mention Auto pilot in Condor. I know it is not possible to disable it...
Best regards
Jean Luc
PS I will finish here with this topic and I will try for the next race to "check all applicable rules and the official FAI Virtual Gliding website prior to any event to ensure they are in compliance with any and all rules at all times as noted in the Pilot Handbook. I'll try...

[Paul_UK]

Something else to consider IF handicap is in play in 20m class. Condor uses DAeC handicap to score in sim. So no one can make a commentary based on the positions Condor proviide whilst flying as these are incorrect. CC will score using IGC handicap values (As per FAI documentation) which differ to DAeC.

The only time the actual results will be known is after all pilots have uploaded their results to CC website post task.

[havet865]

They have a rule document on the website:

https://www.virtualgliding.fai.org/s/FA ... ok_v11.pdf

It states that the Condor results are not the official results and that the official FAI rules for scoring as they are published on the FAI website are used. I checked this document on the FAI website, and it states that:

Handicapping shall be used in the Club Class and may be used in the 20 metre Multi-seat Class in Continental Gliding Championships only (not in World Gliding Championships). Organisers shall state in the CGC Local Procedures if Handicapping is to be used in the 20 metre Multi-seat Class.

So, they are correct in not applying handicapping. While I agree with you that the briefing should correctly reflect this. These rules were published well in advance on the website and on the official discord. As well as re-stated yesterday on Discord, which is the official communications channel.

I completely understand your frustration, but I don't think you have a strong argument here unfortunately

Good evening everyone,

Indeed Wiek, it is the rule we used. Basically, we refer as much as possible to the WGC rules, as stated in the pilot handbook.
We tried to communicate as much as possible to state that there was no handicap, but the briefing sent by Cc created some confusion for sure.

Paul is right when he says 'This is a problem with the CC website, when you upload a task as a 20m class task it defaults to IGC handicap, you cannot select to not apply handicap'.

Thierry from CC has been informed straight away when Arne Martin reported the issue, and as you can see, official results are still on hold for this second race. They will become official when the algorithm is fixed, and I would like to thank once again Thierry for his dedication to fix all the issues we face.

I can confirm that the task is valid and that it will be taken into account for overall results, without handicaps/handicapping.

I have explained the background of all of this more in depth on the Discord Channel. There will be other 'fails' and issues that will arise during this World Series for sure, and that is why it has been created. We would like to thank you for yur feedback and understanding. I know that it must be very frustrating when you are missing an info or see something wrong etc... SOL is helping us a lot too with his great livestreamings 'from the inside', and we are the first to be disappointed when something is not working as intended. We will adapt overall results accordingly at the end of the year if there are too much issues like this. For now, we will stick with the 14 out of 16 best results, but we may lower that number at a further stage if needed, and if the community agrees with it - common sense as usual.

I hope that the race was great to fly and follow, and I would like to take the opportunity to thank Ryan and Christopher who have done an amazing job with the very few info/help/training they have had before the race. The race was so nice to follow! THANKS A LOT!

Antoine

[witor]

Firstly, big well done to Ryan and Christopher and the streaming team. They have indeed done a great job!

On the subject of the rules, I think Jean Luc in his post was trying to point out that there are things in the rules, that mildly put, are not very relevant to condor racing and I totally agree with him. I love the idea of popularising online glider racing, and promoting real gliding, but I think there is still a bit of room for improvement in terms of the rules we have at the moment. The main thing is that the rules document is too long, too complicated and not relevant to condor in many places. This in my opinion will have a counterproductive effect as it can potentially scare off new pilots just starting in condor who will be overwhelmed by pages and pages of rules trying to figure out what’s going on. The fact that we are having this discussion because even experienced pilots didn’t know what the rules are proves that we need a simple, short and easy to understand document.

I am sure that as a community we could further adapt the rules to make them more relevant for condor racing, without going too far from the real FAI regulations. I wouldn’t mind doing some work on it and I am sure we could find some experienced condor racers willing to help.

[havet865]

Firstly, big well done to Ryan and Christopher and the streaming team. They have indeed done a great job!

On the subject of the rules, I think Jean Luc in his post was trying to point out that there are things in the rules, that mildly put, are not very relevant to condor racing and I totally agree with him. I love the idea of popularising online glider racing, and promoting real gliding, but I think there is still a bit of room for improvement in terms of the rules we have at the moment. The main thing is that the rules document is too long, too complicated and not relevant to condor in many places. This in my opinion will have a counterproductive effect as it can potentially scare off new pilots just starting in condor who will be overwhelmed by pages and pages of rules trying to figure out what’s going on. The fact that we are having this discussion because even experienced pilots didn’t know what the rules are proves that we need a simple, short and easy to understand document.

I am sure that as a community we could further adapt the rules to make them more relevant for condor racing, without going too far from the real FAI regulations. I wouldn’t mind doing some work on it and I am sure we could find some experienced condor racers willing to help.

More than happy if yourself and/or a bunch of virtual pilots are willing to create new rules or to develop specific rules for virtual gliding, based on FAI Rules. Let me know if you need some materials in .doc, .pdf or else!

[witor]

Great!

Could I have word (editable documents) of the Virtual+SGP+Rules+v1.1.docx.pdf we currently have on the virtual gliding website and the PILOT’S HANDBOOK Version 1.1please?

My plan is as follows:

1) Create google docs that anyone can see and comment on, but not edit.
2) Make people aware of their existence both here on the forum and on the Virtual gliding Discord and allow them to make comments on google docs.
3) Discuss comments made on the document with the community (we could have a section for that on discord)
4) Edit the documents and implement agreed changes.

Hopefully before the next world series and VSGP qualifications start we should have an improved version of the rules.

If anyone have any suggestions on how to improve my suggested rules development process feel free to share your ideas.

[JLN]

May be it would be good to launch a new topic.
Regards
Jean- Luc

[ryanwoodie]

Thanks Antoine and Witold for your generous words.

I do apologize to everyone for contributing to the confusion on the handicaps with the commentary. I had assumed the task had changed to being handicapped based on the briefing, and did not realize/remember there were specific rules on handicaps that would supersede the briefing.

Regarding revising the rulebook, google docs is a great idea—I'll just add that "suggest edits" mode in google docs might be helpful to keep in mind. Allows viewers to suggest edits directly on the doc, and for editors to quickly approve/reject them.

Regards,
Ryan HG1