The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Discussion about VR

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pckormic
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The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by pckormic » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:27 pm

Hi everybody.

I have started this thread hoping this information could help the developers to solve this "bug"

The problem is that If I use the Oculus Rift googles, my sensation is that the cockpit, my hand, the stick and my body look just a little small in 3D. If I look to the wings tip,it seems a little shorter than they should be.

If i take the Rift googles off, the screen image is in perfect 1:1 scale.

I use the Rift in DCS, IL2 BOS VR, and it works fine.

Besides, using the Rift with the Condor 1 CondorVR patch developed by Jean-Pierre Dumont (thanks again), the 1:1 scale works fine too.

Searching in this forum I´ve found a few people with the same or similar bug, (with Oculus and other VR models) and it seems there isn´t a way we, the users, could fix it.

So I put here the specifications of my PC, hoping this could help the developers to find a fix to this "bug":

Oculus Rift CV1
IPD (Inter Pupilar Distance) 64 mm

Condor 2 graphic options:

MSSA X4, Vertical synchronization OFF, the rest in maximum quality.
Oculus Tray Tool: SuperSampling 1,6, ASW off.

PC:
Op. sys: Windows7 X64 Ultimate
main board: Asus P8Z77-V LE
CPU Intel i5-3570k, 3,40GHz Overclocked to 4.44GHz
RAM 16GB DDR3
Graphic Card: Gigabyte Aorus Geforce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB DDR5X

I think that if the users with this "issue" put here his specs, we could help the developers to find a fix for it.

Goodbye an good flights
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Mas
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by Mas » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:10 am

I don't think its a bug more a missing feature that we don't have yet namely a `world scale setting '/ Aeroflyte 2 was useless in VR until they added world scale option , Flyinside FSX has had it all along. My typical setting in these games is 1.1X at which cockpit scale looks about right to me.

Part of the reason for the `smaller person' effect when you first enter the cockpit is also that the eyepoint is set too low , and too far back . The pilots hips feel about 25cm higher than your own when you look at them , so your eyes feel like they are imbedded in your neck . Its very hard to compress your body down lower in your seat to then move the eyepoint higher when you hit view reset - its much easier to move your body rearward before the reset .

If you get your eye point in a more reasonable place ( higher ) the legs and hips feel closer to normal and pilot body won't feel so tiny. I don't understand why but a few of the gliders the cockpit feels about the right scale , but most of them feel too small which could be fixed with a `world scale setting ' . As an example to check cockpit scale I would extend my hand fully forward and most often feel like I could touch the nose of the glider which wouldn't be possible in real life .

Hope this helps.

k6chris
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by k6chris » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:17 am

I agree that the bigger issue is the need for a simple 'pilot view point' adjustment feature, especially as with simulator set ups it is not possible to 'move the seat back a bit or lower it''. Once you have managed to adjust the view (by repeatedly taking the heads set off and then trying to squat down or lean back and then putting the headseat back on again, in the hope that when you sit up normally the view will be correct) the scale does not seem to be an issue. I repeat my huge thanks to the Condor team for the fantastic job they have done in getting it this far!

Mas
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by Mas » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:53 am

Ok - I see that version 2.06 has been released ( I have been assisting on the beta team and making suggestions in addressing the issue of perceived cockpit scale as you are reporting here ). The `depth perception ' slider will control perceived cockpit and pilot scale . I find a setting of 0.92 pretty much fixes the `smaller person perception' and gives me a correct perception - my hips and seat pan look about right position and I don't have the feeling that I have a 'ventriloquist dummy' protruding from my chest / stomach . It makes a huge difference to the feeling of immersion and VR `peresence to get the scale just right for the individual .

I think the slider could had just been labelled `cockpit scale ' :) You can also adjust this setting in flight with ctrl- 9 and ctrl -0 from memory . Fantastic work for Uros to work out and adjustment for this so quickly - and if i might say the level of work I've seen behind the scenes to verify and fix bugs and stress test fixes with the small dedicated team is amazing !

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OXO
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by OXO » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:29 am

Mas wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:53 am
Fantastic work for Uros to work out and adjustment for this so quickly - and if i might say the level of work I've seen behind the scenes to verify and fix bugs and stress test fixes with the small dedicated team is amazing !

As you have seen, we rely heavily on the skilled beta team to identify bugs and test our fixes. Without them it would take twice as long.
Chris Wedgwood,
Condor Team

thorbury
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by thorbury » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:53 am

My thanks to the developers for putting out this update so quickly - it's great to be able to tweak the VR scale like this and it's very straightforward to use although it takes a bit of tinkering.

Like the post above, I ended up with a number not much below 1, about 0.95.

I also ticked the Oculus button since I'm using Revive but I don't know what this does.

As an aside for those using Windows Mixed Reality, the latest update to Windows includes some WMR tweaks, one of which is the ability to use a hand controller to overlay vision from the headset external cameras (they call this a "torch"), so it's possible to directly compare your own hands with the ones in Condor to judge scale.

It's quite good fun putting the Condor VR scale at either extreme - it's like being a giant or a mouse. Very strange.

Also, I might be imagining it, but it seems like in VR, the head position starts up more accurately on top of the body than in the last update.

Anyway, thanks again to the developers, it's a nice update.

Uros
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by Uros » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:54 pm

You're right, the head position (camera position) is now exactly between the eye pupils in each plane.
Uros Bergant,
Condor Team

k6chris
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by k6chris » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:14 pm

The cockpit scaling is great (thank you), however the head positioning still seems wrong? It seems as though my eyes are too low, so I have physically have to 'sit up straight' in the real world to get the correct view in tye virtual one. I don't think there is a Condor button to reset the view in VR mode? Certainly F1 still gives the same 'too low' view? Num 5 does not seem to do anything either? Is anyone else getting this or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks
Chris

Lensman
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by Lensman » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:01 pm

k6chris wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:14 pm
The cockpit scaling is great (thank you), however the head positioning still seems wrong? It seems as though my eyes are too low, so I have physically have to 'sit up straight' in the real world to get the correct view in tye virtual one. I don't think there is a Condor button to reset the view in VR mode? Certainly F1 still gives the same 'too low' view? Num 5 does not seem to do anything either? Is anyone else getting this or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks
Chris
Indeed, I agree with your findings. The scaling is a useful addition but I too feel the default eye position is too low. I have to break out to Oculus home and re centre my viewpoint while I 'slouch' in my seat, then return to Condor. It does the trick, but not ideal :)
Dave Stubbs
reg# UK 2222
Comp# DS

Uros
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by Uros » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:07 pm

k6chris wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:14 pm
I don't think there is a Condor button to reset the view in VR mode? Certainly F1 still gives the same 'too low' view? Num 5 does not seem to do anything either?
Thanks
Chris
Condor centers the VR view when entering the game (when loading finishes). If you don't have your HMD positioned on your eyes but on your forehead at that moment, then the center is on your forehead. When you then put the HMD on your eyes, the camera is 5-10 cm lower as it should be.

So make sure you have your HMD on your eyes with the head centered when you enter the game. Of course you can center the VR view in game with the usual View reset button (Num 5 by default).
Uros Bergant,
Condor Team

k6chris
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by k6chris » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:34 pm

Uros wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:07 pm
k6chris wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:14 pm
I don't think there is a Condor button to reset the view in VR mode? Certainly F1 still gives the same 'too low' view? Num 5 does not seem to do anything either?
Thanks
Chris
Condor centers the VR view when entering the game (when loading finishes). If you don't have your HMD positioned on your eyes but on your forehead at that moment, then the center is on your forehead. When you then put the HMD on your eyes, the camera is 5-10 cm lower as it should be.

So make sure you have your HMD on your eyes with the head centered when you enter the game. Of course you can center the VR view in game with the usual View reset button (Num 5 by default).
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that 'Num 5' does not work as a view reset in VR? The only way to change the HMD position is to take the headset off, until the HMD 'turns off' - then squat down, put the HMD back on again and then sit up. Pressing Num 5 makes no difference as far as I can tell - but happy to be proved wrong - it happens frequently!

XOS
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by XOS » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:47 pm

k6chris wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:34 pm
Uros wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:07 pm
k6chris wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:14 pm
I don't think there is a Condor button to reset the view in VR mode? Certainly F1 still gives the same 'too low' view? Num 5 does not seem to do anything either?
Thanks
Chris
Condor centers the VR view when entering the game (when loading finishes). If you don't have your HMD positioned on your eyes but on your forehead at that moment, then the center is on your forehead. When you then put the HMD on your eyes, the camera is 5-10 cm lower as it should be.

So make sure you have your HMD on your eyes with the head centered when you enter the game. Of course you can center the VR view in game with the usual View reset button (Num 5 by default).
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that 'Num 5' does not work as a view reset in VR? The only way to change the HMD position is to take the headset off, until the HMD 'turns off' - then squat down, put the HMD back on again and then sit up. Pressing Num 5 makes no difference as far as I can tell - but happy to be proved wrong - it happens frequently!
My "view reset" works perfectly....Maybe your "Num Lock" is in wrong state? :-)
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Mas
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by Mas » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:10 am

I always enter the game from inside the HMD and always find my eyepoint a bit too low and far back . Moveing my eyepoint forward helps to find a compromise for my brain for `believe ability ' as the pilot model has legs straighter out than in my deck chair . To fix both these issues I need to squash myself down in my seat and pull by head back and hit view reset - both really difficult now with deck chair .

Adjustment for eye-height and fore / aft position is important for good VR implementation particularly in the presence of a cockpit body model and I've put it forward for the wish list Its a sometimes subtle adjustment that needs to be done while you are sitting relaxed in your chair so it can be quick and easy , tofind that moment wher `presence ' kicks in and you suddenly feel more immersed in the cockpit . Most import if you need to hit view reset for any reason it needs to default your adjusted position . Doing gymnastics in flight moving your head in the opposite direction and hitting view reset trying to get your eye point right again is not conducive to precision task flying :)

Uros
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by Uros » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:10 am

XYZ eyepoint adjustment will be implemented in the next patch. It will be specific for each plane. The idea is to have 6 keys to move the eye position around and then the setting is auto saved in the plane specific folder / file. There would be no GUI setting.
Uros Bergant,
Condor Team

k6chris
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Re: The 'smaller person' bug in VR

Post by k6chris » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:26 am

XOS wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:47 pm

My "view reset" works perfectly....Maybe your "Num Lock" is in wrong state? :-)
<whistles> - oh THAT Num 5 button <Whistles again> - I will add it to my list of being wrong :)

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