VR Nausea - plea to devs!

[berymar]

In any case, no one condemn. I think the sim can be much better. Improve, for example, weather dynamics. More important work for developers. OXO and the people around him do a good job. Unfortunately, I feel that this sim is pointing somewhere else than I wish.

[OXO]

I feel that this sim is pointing somewhere else than I wish.

Please explain..

[berymar]

Chris, I do not want you to misunderstand me. I appreciate the work of the entire team of developers. However, focus on removing the errors that Condor2 still has. Unexplained and incomprehensible fall of Condora2. Problems writing on CSV. IGC does not record the use of the ASG29 engine. Weather ... Try to improve the weather dynamics. I mean the transition of cold or warm front associated with the storm activity. As a huge addition, I would see two rows of gliders on the start line. I know it's a lot of work you do at your leisure. I firmly believe that you can do excellent sailing simulator. And I hope I'm not alone with this idea. I wish you much success. Best regards ...... MOV

[janjansen]

. Unexplained and incomprehensible fall of Condora2.

Hm?

Problems writing on CSV.

This keeps popping up, but the only actual error Im aware off (a player mysteriously restarting a task after finishing and disconnecting) is really fringe and should be trivial to deal with even if its not fixed in condor.

IGC does not record the use of the ASG29 engine.

Yes it does.

Weather ... Try to improve the weather dynamics. I mean the transition of cold or warm front associated with the storm activity. As a huge addition, I would see two rows of gliders on the start line.

I think we all want more variation in the weather, but thats going to be a huge undertaking and if its not done right, it may be a regression from what we have now. I also agree on the dual rows, but in the mean time, competition organizers should consider just using airstart.

As for the choice of supporting VR before all the other things; I think thats a good call, and thats despite the fact I dont have VR. The addition of VR support has a good chance of attracting new pilots or getting back old condor pilots that retired. And if condor has one major problem right now, I think its the relative low number of online pilots.

[Mas]

`turbulence; may make the task harder , VR sickness from it is a deal breaker for some

Thats not something condor can or should address, its partly the realism of gliding, and partly VR effect..
[/quote]

If the Condor team are serious about developing good VR experience ( and I think they are ) its something that I think they can and will address. There is no other flight sim that models turbulence like Condor and if it needs a tweak for VR comfort then well and good. Theres no precedence for realism here - there's nothing particularly natural about sitting in front of 2D monitor pretending you are immersed in a gliding scene or being in VR with a headset on , but its a step in the right direction for realism . VR is the biggest step into immersion in flight simulation yet and it will only get better . Many Condor 'pilots' probably like to fly online tasks - typing messages in chat , watching a movie on the side , drinking a beer or coffee while they are flying . VR will probably never allow that kind of freedom . But I hope those worlds will meet in the middle somewhere in time and VR newbies can still join any task and fly with other 'flatscreen ' pilots .

[Mas]

Do you still get this nausea if you set auto view panning to 0?

Hi Oxo

Is that with the slider to the left ?- have been trying it with both view panning and smoothing to the far left .

Can you explain how auto view panning works - whats its function so i can see how it might effect in VR- maybe having view panning all the way right will improve things ?

The basic problem with the turbulence is the un-commanded swinging of the nose implying a short term fast rotational drift of your the glider and your body . Your eyes see it but your vestibular system doesn't feel it. I find that once a little mild VR sickness sets in - the kind that gives a mild feeling of unease and a bit of a cold sweat breaking out and that you can normally generally keep flying and it doesn't get any worse , then turbulence modelling seems to be `the straw that breaks the camels back ' the regular little nodding of the nose actually becomes distressing enough to terminate the flight .

So the question is I guess does it make any difference if the nose is locked in the centre of your view and the turbulence is implied with the background scene nodding about or is it better to have background stable and the nose physically waving about in the view - may not matter at all as far as your vestibular is concerned .

I will take notes on how my tolerance to it changes or not over time , but the `light' setting stills seems too much , but all turbulence off does suddenly feel sterile - i think 'realism' can be reinstated by a much smaller turbelence modelling that still suggests the fluidity of the air without upsetting the vestibular too much .

Its ocurred to me that it might be good to set up few standardised tasks for VR evaluation with and without turbulence and of a certain length and see how VR pilots cope with it physiologically and we can collect some data . Its worth remembering that some of the new VR Condor pilots will be new to VR and maybe new to flying in Condor as well - so things like how balanced you fly a turn can have a big bearing on how long you last . Slips and skids in VR are momentarily much worse to your vestibular system than constant turbulence .

[wickid]

Is that with the slider to the left ?- have been trying it with both view panning and smoothing to the far left .

Can you explain how auto view panning works - whats its function so i can see how it might effect in VR- maybe having view panning all the way right will improve things ?

Auto View Panning makes the cockpit move about in turbulence. With the slider all the way to the left it is turned off. It fixes the cockpit in place on screen. I use it in my sim pit because otherwise the yawstring would move on screen in turbulence which is unrealistic. View Smoothing is the jerkiness of this effect. Also when using the hatswitch on a joystick the camera swings more smoothly to the new view with view smoothing on (slighter to the right). With it off (to the left) the camera will snap to the new position.

[k6chris]

Auto View Panning makes the cockpit move about in turbulence. With the slider all the way to the left it is turned off. It fixes the cockpit in place on screen. I use it in my sim pit because otherwise the yawstring would move on screen in turbulence which is unrealistic. View Smoothing is the jerkiness of this effect. Also when using the hatswitch on a joystick the camera swings more smoothly to the new view with view smoothing on (slighter to the right). With it off (to the left) the camera will snap to the new position.

This has helped a lot, or at least my brain thinks it has! Managed to complete a 45 min low level ridge task (Nympsfield - Bath race coure- Nympsfield) and was only feeling slightly quesy at the end...although that's probably a lot less quesy than I felt when I flew it for real as P2 in the front seat of a Nimbus 3DT!!

Also discovered that when you take the headset off, your 'view' is then displayed on your normal PC screen, so you can fly for a bit in 2D mode whilst you recover. Nice touch!

[Mas]

Chris I agree that having slider to the left feels a little better .

I've had two flying sessions now to compare the two extremes of the 'auto view panning'

With control far right the nose of the glider locks to your head essentially . Any turbulence effect actually wobbles the whole scenery around but keeps the glider still. With slider full right , turbulence is simulated by moving ( swinging ) the nose around essentially unlocked from your head and the background scenery stays fixed in your view . It takes a bit of wrapping your head around . I set wind and thermal turbulence to medium so that there is no mistaking it.

The turbulence effect is noticeably harder on you when you are traveling fast such on tow, speeding at 80 -90 knots between clouds or final glide etc as the turbulence movement is much more frequent and also faster in its frequency.

I found the auto pan slider left , locking the nose to be a little easier on the stomach than to the far right . Having the nose and cockpit moving around independently gives nausea faster - a kind of sea sickness feeling , because your eyes ate seeing the cockpit swinging left and right etc but your vestibular system isn't feeling it.

The physiological effect with slider to the left that is nose locked and turbulence effect manifesting with the whole scenery swinging around feels quite different and still unpleasant in a different kind of way . As it happens I can feel my eyes doing a rapid jump to the scenery when they detect this movement , trying to lock on to it and then jumping back and forward from cockpit to scenery . It feels more taxing on the eyes and the brain rather than the stomach in the other mode- more like an eye discomfort or twitchyness and a litte `headachy' . Once a bit of VR sickness sets in it feels uncomfortable enough that you don't want to continue .

I'd still rate the fixed background and swinging nose type rendition as overall harder on you and the fixed nose less so - how much - hard to guess - a 30% improvement in VR `fatigue' .

I'm interested in how these effects can be reduced in the future . Getting the new or returning pilots wanting to use VR into the online task scene is the challenge I see .

[Mas]

A nice description thankyou.
The perfect set up would be slider to the left locking the glider nose to the physical cockpit combined with a motion platform , so all those fast scenery shifts of simulated turbulence seen by the`pilot' would be felt by the vestibula system and would make perfect sense so the problem of nausea would be almost totally eliminated .

Is that with the slider to the left ?- have been trying it with both view panning and smoothing to the far left .

Can you explain how auto view panning works - whats its function so i can see how it might effect in VR- maybe having view panning all the way right will improve things ?

Auto View Panning makes the cockpit move about in turbulence. With the slider all the way to the left it is turned off. It fixes the cockpit in place on screen. I use it in my sim pit because otherwise the yawstring would move on screen in turbulence which is unrealistic. View Smoothing is the jerkiness of this effect. Also when using the hatswitch on a joystick the camera swings more smoothly to the new view with view smoothing on (slighter to the right). With it off (to the left) the camera will snap to the new position.

[pierrewind]

Well... I managed to get sick with multi million dollar level D sim.
6 axis, motion, colimated displays... full cockpit...

The problem when you get used to flying is that you get used to specific feelings. It's impossible to replicated these at 100%.

Only option is to get used to it.

It's like riding at the back of a car. It might feel uncomfortable at first, but then you get used to it and it's fine!

[Mas]

Only option is to get used to it.

I've made as detailed appraisal of the problem as I can - the turbulence modeling in Condor is unique and I've made some suggestions as to how to reduce symptoms including the potential of a reduced turbulence model . Condor VR port is a work in progress . The whole Idea of having these discussions is to find solutions that will help ameliorate these effects .

May I ask if you are using a VR headset?

[Mas]

Only option is to get used to it.

I've made as detailed appraisal of the problem as I can - the turbulence modeling in Condor is unique and I've made some suggestions as to how to reduce symptoms including the potential of a reduced turbulence model . Condor VR port is a work in progress . The whole Idea of having these discussions is to find solutions that will help ameliorate these effects . I've done plenty of time in other VR flightsims to have a good understanding of what kind of flight modelling in VR my own body will and wont get used to.

May I ask if you are using a VR headset?

[sin]

I must say, I haven't noticed that. I set up a flight with heavy turbulence and the plane was pitching and yawing as you would expect but the cockpit was locked to my viewpoint. Only the landscape was moving if i kept my head still.

exactly!
landscape was moving if i kept my head still!!!
But landscape should not moveю
The cockpit should shiver, but not the landscape !!!
But now Nose glider sways with landscape picture
In VR -in turbulence, the glider should be swing, not the landscape !!!
p.s. if "Auto view panning" full right -everything looks right! (almost)

[sin]

even with upper settings ("Auto view panning" full right )
on big speed (200 and more km/h) landscape swing with cockpit ((

please untie the horizon from turbulence!!!