ASG 29 or Ventus

wickid · Post by **wickid** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:32 pm

witch glider is better. I've been wondering ever sinds the planepack came out. So in total boredom i decided to draw the polars on top of eachother

. Here is the result

ventus in blue
ASG in red

Chock · Post by **Chock** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:29 pm

Looking at that, it would appear they've both got approximately the same best glide angle (which is not surprising). Performance is optimal for each of the two in ever so slightly different conditions, but there's really not a lot in it. Even if two people could fly them against one another, right to their limits, saying which one is best would still depend upon the conditions, so a careful look at the terrain and the expected lift conditions might prove to be a critical deciding factor for such a hypothetical race, although I suspect you'd need both gliders to be right on the ragged edge of their performance over a long stretch to see the difference, and that would be a risky proposition in real life and in Condor too, if you like your wings to stay where they should be.

So in terms of practical, usable differences, on the face of it, the ASG would appear to be the winner, simply because it has a higher rough air max speed and a slightly higher limit on maximum wing load, which would at least theoretically give it the edge in terms of flexibility over where you pick your lift and how far you can push things, but whether that's a big enough difference for a pilot to exploit is another matter.

Where you've got a choice between going for ridge lift and going for thermals, there could be quite a marked difference between which is the wiser choice for the two though, because whacking along turbulent ridges at full tilt, it would seem to be the case that the ASG could go a bit faster without overstressing itself, but in fairness, the Ventus has a higher weight limit, which might mean it gets better air penetration.

This is where Condor can be a bit tricky of course, because, on a very long task, the map size for some sceneries is a limiting factor as to whether you have a task with multiple turn points that features sections travelling with the wind and sections travelling against it, or whether you have a point to point race where the wind direction remains relatively constant in relation to your flight path. On a straight line ridge flight where you could pretty much guarantee lift and maintain a high speed, I'd pick the ASG.

wickid · Post by **wickid** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:10 pm

I usualy fly the ASG, but in strong thermal conditions i pick the Ls-10 because it a hell of a lot easier to thermal with full water. And thats were the difference is made with most of the thermal task. Who can get up the quickest.

wickid · Post by **wickid** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:10 pm

I drew the LS-10 in as well, its a hell of a lot closer than i thought and at high speed its actualy better

.

Love2Fly · Post by **Love2Fly** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:41 pm

very small differences.......
I think the Ventus2cx looks better..

then again, SH-fan here..

Benedikt · Post by **Benedikt** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:34 pm

There are so small differences.
Nobody can really say, that glider is better.
The winner is always the plane, whose pilot had the better decisions.
At least I'm a Schleicher-Fan, my father hat a ASW 27, so I say the ASG is the best.

TimKuijpers · Post by **TimKuijpers** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:49 pm

That's not true..
Look at the ls10 compared to the ASG,
at the 180km/h (usual the avg glide speed) the ls10 has at least 0.1m/s more sink.
On a glide of 60km, you need to glide 1200 seconds. That's 120m extra!!
Condor tasks can be so predictable that it comes down to even 50m.. maybe less.
Don't fool yourself with these pictures, a little math can tell you the real difference.

simsoarer · Post by **simsoarer** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:37 pm

I tried flying all three at 110 and 130 knots from 4000feet with no weather, the glide performance difference at those two speeds is to close to call.

I belive the pilots skill and decisions make the most difference not the Glider performance.

wickid · Post by **wickid** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:17 pm

The asg and the ventus are a maximum of about 0,05 m/s appart at all points of the curve (with full water) witch means that even when they glide from 10 Km alt, The asg would glide 518 km, and the ventus would glide 510 km. Thats a difference in distance of 1,5%. So from altitudes of 1,5 km. where you effectively have about 1000 meters alt. to glide that would mean a difference of 800 meters further with the asg. Witch you cover in 24 seconds. That is the advandage in time with the asg. Witch is not that much. You can't even complete one 360 deg. turn in a thermal in that time. Altough i once finisht a RL task of 4 hrs, 1 sec faster then number 2. But we had to share the day victory because we still had the same avarage speed (we both flew an LS-4b so same handicap). I don't know if condor scores on time or on avarage speed like in most RL competitions.

TimKuijpers · Post by **TimKuijpers** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:22 pm

every second helps, so 24 seconds on a short finalglide, I find very welcome!
Of course I also see that handling is often more important than performance,
but don't fool yourself saying it doesnt matter, because it does.

p.s. better check either your clock, your airspeed or your bank, because 24 seconds is a long time for a condor thermal turn..
all my comments may be taken as a hint.. (and 50% contains a portion sarcasme)

wickid · Post by **wickid** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:46 pm

I was talking about real life not condor. I real life i don't turn thermals with 50 degree's of bank and 2 G's. Usualy not more then 30 to 45 degree's of bank. A 30 second 360 deg. turn is pretty steep.

And in real life you would go with the glider that feels confortable for you. If you look at the WGC results you see a pretty even mix of ASG-29 and Ventus. And when the Ls-10 sells more i bet there will be some of them mixed in there as well. I'm surprised that there are not as many Dg-800's in the WGC in the 18 meter class.

ambrozic · Post by **ambrozic** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:53 pm

imo LS3 flown by chuck norris ownz em all

wickid · Post by **wickid** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:31 pm

With all the new 18 meter plasic he won't win because they don't use the handicap system there.

I wonder how much they can get out of the 18 meters span. 30 years ago they got 33 out of a Ka-6 with 15 meters span, now they get 48 out of the same span, and 52 with 18 meters. Where would we be in an other 30 years. Around 70? Would that be posible. Loek Boermans (from TU-Delft) said he could get 100 out of an open class glider with boundary layer suction. But the FAI won't approve that because it is powered by a pump.

TimKuijpers · Post by **TimKuijpers** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:53 am

"chuck norris"

Really, what's the difference between 45 and 50 degrees in time?
I think you underestimate the bank angle you get in real life.
When I have the feeling going 60 degrees in RL, I know I'm hardly at 45 degrees...
In condor that's completely different, but the facts are same as RL, just the experience is different.

wickid · Post by **wickid** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:50 pm

Sorry typo. I wanted to say 60 degree's. Thats probably the avarage bank angle that i fly in condor which is way more then I would ever do in real life (exept a few time when i had to practicing steep turns for my licence and when i do aerobatics). You normaly are pulling about 2 G's in a 60 degree turn, which isn't very comfortable when thermaling.