Vintage gliders on Condor

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pm3
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by pm3 » Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:32 pm

I add my opinion which is that of a 3sdmax creator, I prefer the Breguet 901
because it is the most beautiful!

KipperUK
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by KipperUK » Tue May 12, 2020 5:08 pm

Skylark? They seem to be well liked by those who like these sorts of things.

I would suggest that part of the attraction of vintage models is some of the unique designs, that may not have caught on (V-tails, gull wings etc) so perhaps rather than going for a series of 'performance' wooden ships which will likely look like wooden versions of what we have already, go for unique/interesting ones.

Just my thoughts - but I'm not an expert or a vintage pilot - I did 100km in a Ka-8 and my back still hurts two years later :)

I would probably buy a T.21 just because there's one at our club which I've had a short flight in.

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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Olympia » Tue May 12, 2020 6:11 pm

V tails were never popular on vintage gliders, and you never see them on glass ones. The only V tail I ever flew was the prototype BG135 Gypsy (an all metal ship) and it nearly killed me. I was asked to test fly it with the CG set well aft because I had long legs and wold be sitting well back in the cockpit. Towed up to 3000ft to check spin recovery. Two to the right, and it recovered, but the spin to the left did not stop as the standard drill (and other recovery drills) was just not working. I was losing height rapidly and at 1500 ft I prepared to bale out. I undid my straps, and leaned forward to release the canopy, whereupon the spinning stopped. Pulled out of the dive, did up my straps, and headed for home. The designers were present at this display and I think they realised that the max. aft CG needed to be moved forward a bit ! I don't think the BG 135 went into series production though I have met other folk who flew it.

I'd go with the Skylarks any of them 1,2 or 3, but the 4 was my favourite - a real Rolls Royce of a glider.
Last edited by Olympia on Thu May 14, 2020 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by benkog » Wed May 13, 2020 5:00 pm

I have seen a reply about old SZD wooden ships, especially Mucha... I vote this. THX!

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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Olympia » Wed May 13, 2020 6:44 pm

Further to my comment about V tails:

Combining elevator and rudder, for that is what you are doing here seems a good idea - save weight and profile drag. What's not to like about that?

I'll tell you: The elevator is normally used falrly gently at all times to adjust the angle of attack of the main wings. The rudder has a much bigger job to do and needs a lot more power to do it. Entering a turn it needs to overpower the adverse drag of the rising wing, which is producing more lift and therefore more drag You don't get that power from a small V-tail. AND the time when you really need the rudder to do something is in recovering from a spin, as I discovered with the Gypsy. You would need a really big V tail to give you the rudder power you might need, and this defeats the weight and drag savings. There were a few other V tails around in the early days but it never caught on. Plus it must have been a b***er to organise the control cables.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by wickid » Wed May 13, 2020 8:44 pm

Olympia wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:44 pm
Further to my comment about V tails:

Combining elevator and rudder, for that is what you are doing here seems a good idea - save weight and profile drag. What's not to like about that?

I'll tell you: The elevator is normally used falrly gently at all times to adjust the angle of attack of the main wings. The rudder has a much bigger job to do and needs a lot more power to do it. Entering a turn it needs to overpower the adverse drag of the rising wing, which is producing more lift and therefore more drag You don't get that power from a small V-tail. AND the time when you really need the rudder to do something is in recovering from a spin, as I discovered with the Gypsy. You would need a really big V tail to give you the rudder power you might need, and this defeats the weight and drag savings. There were a few other V tails around in the early days but it never caught on. Plus it must have been a b***er to organise the control cables.
I've done some work on restoring a Ka3 which has a V tail. The mechanism to combine the controls is very simple actually.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Olympia » Wed May 13, 2020 8:58 pm

I stand corrected on the controls then.

I have never seen a K3. Did you fly it? And if so, did you ever spin it? The Ka 2 and Ka 7 two seaters which I have instructed in quite a lot (not V tails,of course) were excellent for teaching spinning. Terrible poor lookout from the back seat though - that's why I preferred the Bocian or the K13.

I'd like to see a drawing or a picture of a K3.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by EDB » Wed May 13, 2020 9:12 pm


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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by wickid » Wed May 13, 2020 10:29 pm

Olympia wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:58 pm
I stand corrected on the controls then.

I have never seen a K3. Did you fly it? And if so, did you ever spin it? The Ka 2 and Ka 7 two seaters which I have instructed in quite a lot (not V tails,of course) were excellent for teaching spinning. Terrible poor lookout from the back seat though - that's why I preferred the Bocian or the K13.

I'd like to see a drawing or a picture of a K3.
There are only 9 still in existence and as far as I know only 2 or 3 in flying condition. 2 are owned by a friend of mine, both still in restauration. Before Corona struck we had just glued the triplex skin back on the spar of the V tail to from the torsion box.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by wickid » Thu May 14, 2020 8:06 am

Screenshot_20200514-080232_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
A lot simpler than a modern flap mixer.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by oscar_geeza » Fri May 15, 2020 12:29 pm

Skylark 4 please

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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Jantar » Fri May 15, 2020 2:04 pm

VT 116 Orlík, please..
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by mattm » Sat May 16, 2020 12:30 am

Olympia wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:58 pm
I stand corrected on the controls then.

I have never seen a K3. Did you fly it? And if so, did you ever spin it? The Ka 2 and Ka 7 two seaters which I have instructed in quite a lot (not V tails,of course) were excellent for teaching spinning. Terrible poor lookout from the back seat though - that's why I preferred the Bocian or the K13.

I'd like to see a drawing or a picture of a K3.
Not quite a vintage glider, but I did own a V-tail glider at one point. It was an HP-11 built from a kit designed and produced by legendary US Pilot Dick Schreder (who I believe is mentioned above; he did fly in a WGC in the 1950s in his own design). It did have an extended V tail to improve control. The thing used only flaps for landing control and could land very short. The approach attitude with full flaps was extremely nose down. It was fortunate that it landed short because with full back stick to flare the rudder input got completely removed from the mix. Cross wind landings were quite interesting.

I had two partners in the ship. One had been a test pilot for Piper earlier in his career, and before we flew it he said "Don't spin it!" On his first flight the other partner terrified himself and refused to fly it anymore. It took me about 5 flights to reach that point. The test pilot guy flew it quite a lot but was ready to bail out over the ridges in Virginia one day when it became very hard to control.

As far as I know it's still flying (we sold it about 15 years ago).

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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Olympia » Sat May 16, 2020 11:51 am

Very interesting contribution. Your experiences and those of your partners are pretty much what I would expect,and you give me a clue about what when wrong with my failed spin recovery. The standard recovery is: full rudder out of spin direction followed by full forward stick. I did not occur to me that a full elevator movement in either direction might reduce or nullify any previous rudder application. Mind you, I was kind of busy at the time! The episode brought home to me the importance of knowing where the CG was in a glider.and reading the placard. I only weigh 65 kilos. It was just lucky for me that the canopy release on the Gypsy was so far forward!! It was the last time I volunteered to test a glider.

I had forgotten about the HP11. I remember now seeing pictures of it, and noting the large V tail. I wondered how you got it into a trailer.

In Condor of course, a V-tailer might be fun as you can't kill yourself. The HP 11 qualifies as vintage I think, as it is age not construction method we are talking about here,
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by wickid » Sat May 16, 2020 12:25 pm

If it is a vintage V tail you want you could also consider the SHK.

I've not yet flow the Ka3. I will once the restauration is complete. But from somebody I have talked to who has, it is like every other Kaiser design. Very harmonious and it does not have the problem that you run out of rudder if you push the stick all the way forward.
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