Vintage gliders on Condor

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Fabry
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Fabry » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:15 pm

Based on the outstanding success for USNS Low performance nights I believe that if you build them people will buy them and create Vintage events.

What about picking an early WGC like 1950 Örebro and build some of the most common competitors

Weihe
Olympia
Moswey III
Air100

This will need a new hangar category and to really succeed one of those should be included for free I'm affraid.

EDIT: maybe the concept can be tested by creating an additional filter in the Hangar to pick gliders built in a certain year range, I'll be happy to fly a Grunahu Baby only competition.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by OXO » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:22 am

As I understand it, the Weihe and Olympia are almost the same plane.

I'm becoming more receptive, and I would add Brequet 901 to your list, and remove the Weihe
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Bre901 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:41 am

OXO wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:22 am
As I understand it, the Weihe and Olympia are almost the same plane.
Both gliders were designed in the late 30s by the same guy : Hans Jacobs at the DFS
The Olympia was designed as a one-type for the 1940 Olympic games, the contest rules limited the span to 15 m (49 ft 3 in), best L/D = 25, more than 952 built
The Weihe was designed to have the best performance, span = 18 m (59 ft 1 in), best L/D = 29, more than 400 built
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFS_Olympia_Meise
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFS_Weihe

It makes sense to select only one, and the most popular one
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by OXO » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:10 am

Proposed list is:

Breguet 901
3740_112.jpg
Olympia
1768184.jpg
Moswey III
1886455.jpg
Air100
jpg_air_100_no1_a_angers_marce.jpg


I won't accept a longer list. But its possible to exchange those in the list for others... but you will have to be very convincing :)

I am assuming that performance data and flight manuals are available for each of these of course. If not, then we will not make it.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by canastel9g » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:26 am

I will vote for the Breguet 901 for its history and its flight capabilities for the time ...

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Olympia
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Olympia » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:01 pm

I suppose I ought to put in my tuppenceworth, since I think I can fairly claim to be one of ,or maybe even the first, to suggest that a wooden glider or two might be a good idea in Condor My handle will give you a clue as to which one I prefer. I flew an Olympia 2b for many years, did two of my Silver legs in one (by this time my OWN one), including the first five hours ever flown at our club. There were 100 of them built at the end of WWII in the UK from kits intended for the 1940 Olympics, which a certain Herr Hitler prevented from taking place. A mainstay of UK gliding post war.

A very elegant design for its time and very easy to fly.. I subsequently flew most of the wooden gliders - all the Slingsby types from T31 to T42 .

A higher performance machine which might please more folks the Slingsby Dart. The Oly 460 series gliders, of which I also owned one, was a more tricky beast, and while I personally would like to fly it, I doubt it will ever be modelled.

The only plastic glider I have flown is the ASK 21, which impressed me by its performance, but was nothing like as much fun to fly as my old Oylmpia 2b

I suppose a compromise might be the K18 which is a K8 with Ka6E wings. Very nice to fly RL..
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by davehmartin » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:41 pm

It is good to see interest picking up
From the list of gliders at the 1954 Worlds the Slingsby Type 34 Sky was the most popular with 7 flying
The nest most popular was the Olympia 6 then the Weihe with 5 plus one Weihe 50.

I would vote for the Sky simply because I have all the flight data to hand.

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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by BBU25 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:39 am

My vote for the Weihe.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Olympia » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:03 pm

The Weihe is an 18m Olympia, a glider I have never seen. There were 100 UK plus some French Olympias, but if people would prefer the Weihe I would go along with that.

A wooden two seater might be fun as well . I'd go for the Bocian which in my opinion was the nicest of the breed. I would avoid the Slingsby T42 Capstan as it was a poor performer and less useful than the old T31 for teaching. The Ka2 and Ka7 were not very handy for the instructor ,with poor visibility in the back seat. I know, I did hundreds of trips in them.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by OXO » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:21 pm

Probably we will settle on a selection which are comparable performance so they will all be used in competition.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by wickid » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:52 pm

How about a minimoa? The iconic vintage glider that is even on the Schempp Hirth logo

Also I agree on the Olympia and it's various other derivatives.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Fabry » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:14 pm

OXO wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:21 pm
Probably we will settle on a selection which are comparable performance so they will all be used in competition.
This is certainly the most important requisite otherwise they will never be popular.
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by Bre901 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:38 am

I have been digging the Internet for polars of the above mentioned gliders, the easiest ones were the Ka6E & ASK13: on the AS website Image

I have been able to find all of them, except the Moswey III
I have also been able to find the handicaps for all (except the Air100 and the Moswey III)

I printed all the polars on sheets of paper and measured them in order to get data to feed an excel file
The resulting curves are a bit wavy (especially at low speeds, but that is also because of Excel curve smoothing, at the ends :roll: ) but I feel they are precise enough to compare performances.
I also have added the polars of the existing vintage gliders in Condor (dashed lines)

Note : The AV36 polar is just as wavy as that on the original document (S&G Oct. 1953)
.
Vintage_Polars.png
.
Vintage_Handicaps.png
.
In the single-seaters there are clearly 2 groups :
- '30s-'40s or later low-perf. designs (Meise, Weihe, Air100, Minimoa, AV36)
- '50s designs (Ka6E & Br901, same handicap)[/list]

Edit :
For handicaps, I found a more recent (2018) FFVP file :
Ka6E=85, Br901=86 (so if we keep 86 - DeAC - for the Ka6E, maybe the Br901 should be 87)
The Milan (original Weihe, not the -50) = 78
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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by EDB » Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:54 pm

The AV36 has COVID-19...
See his polar.
:wink:

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Re: Vintage gliders on Condor

Post by michaeljc13 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:13 pm

Hi i have the manual for a Pirat SZD -30 .

it has all the relevant dimensions /weights/polar curve.

the link is as follows :

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AhK0N7znT3mvkUo_Mkt ... v?e=OkVrnb

i also have a Condor V1 file with Pirat wings/tail/fuselage if that would help ?

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