Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

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witor
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Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by witor » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:19 am

I think the current pilot ranking list is totally meaningless as it only shows how much someone flies and not how good pilots are.

It would be great to implement some sort of skill rating systems like in other sports (elo in chess, MMR in starcraft or other skill based rankings in various online games) with esport becoming more and more popular this could help to qualify to various online competitions.

All we need is a log from the server with results and log of disconnections to people disconnecting to avoid loss of rating points. Points would be gained only as a result of a direct competition between pilots.

There are many mathematical models for rating systems already developed, we could use one of them. My personal favorite it GLICKO 2 rating system

http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf

In general the idea is quite simple: you win with another pilot you gain points, he loses points.

The system could be implemented in all RATED competitions (or individual races) . UNRATED competitions could still take place. Organisers can decide if competition is rated or not.

Is this feasible at all?

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BOD1
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by BOD1 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:43 am

Interesting indeed!

I looked at the ELO system used to rate chess players (1 vs 1) a while back but it is not applicable to a set of players.

Glicko has the same problem , but I came across the ELO-MMR scoring system published in April 2021 at the WWW 21 conference in... Ljubljana in Slovenia (that's a sign!): https://cs.stanford.edu/people/paulliu/ ... 1-elor.pdf (Elo-MMR: A Rating System for Massive Multiplayer Competitions, where "MMR" in the name stands for "Massive", "Monotonic", and "Robust").

An implementation in RUST (https://github.com/EbTech/Elo-MMR) is provided but I do not know this language, I will try to convert it into JAVA, beyond the fact that it exceeds my skills in mathematics :lol: (BTW, if there is a talented RUST/JAVA developer in the room...)

The other problem to solve is the choice of the result set (I'm not sure that limiting it to competitions will yield a sufficient data set), the minimal number of scores to consider and the frequency of the calculation.
I think I'll take the ranking from each race, if there are at least 5 results. If it's a competition I calculate once the day is over, but if it's a non-competition race, I'll have results that will be added over the year (and possibly an overlap over several years), so how do I incorporate them into the rating?
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Jarmo K
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by Jarmo K » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:22 pm

Thanks Witold to rising this subject!

I think some simple and not too complicated solution could be following:
1) number of pilot flown the task minus your position:
- 10 flown, you 3rd = you get 7 points
- 30 flown, you 3rd = you get 27 points
- 240 flown, you 25th = you get 215 points
- with exception: 1 (only you) flown, you get minimum 1 point. And if you fly plane with index below 1, 1 is divided by that index number = you get over 1 point.
- then task lenght must have some influence as well, but not too much unless it is competition flight. This will prevent pilots who fly only offline +1000km tasks be on top of ranking.
So, if you want to be high on ranking list, you should attend those popular competitions.

2) competitions can have additional factor(-s), maybe based on how many competitors have registered.
- you get ranking points from each task as described above
- the more registered pilot who have really flown tasks, the higher factor (maybe counted from final overall results?)
- extra ranking points for top 3 pilots (more pilots in comp = higher extra points)
- this also gives extra value on competitions above daily frequent races
Then there's naturally possibility have even higher factor e.g. in competitions organized by FAI eSport.

3) then I would include some "penalties", no idea yet how much:
- not uploading your ftr in competition
- crash is naturally 0 points, but in competition some extra minus ranking points (if competition organizer has not set crash penalty already)
- those who were watching eSGP briefings & races, must have noticed that they put high value on safe flying even in virtual.

Definetely this requires further development/thinking: Maybe how to valuate higher those flights with low index plane (single result, competitions can have higher factor when plane class is low index). My thinking is that easiest is to use those numbers what we already have: amount of pilots, position, task lenght, plane index (+competition factor), e.t.c.

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by 6266 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:15 pm

Jarmo K wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:22 pm
...
So, if you want to be high on ranking list, you should attend those popular competitions.
...
That will kill nice competitions with less competitors. Concentration on the big competitions is at the expense of the variety of competitions (the last sentence is translated with google, couldn't say that in english by myself)
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by Fox9 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:30 pm

Hi all,

One problem are the differences between the competitions. We have one ore two very long contests with over 25 flight days and only about 15 days are scored. There are also short contests with about 10 flightdays and maybe 8 are scored. I think, the long competitions could be divided in two or three. In this case I suggest the following procedure (otherwise we need no ranking list and instead of we can use the results of the big contests):

1. Pilot's performance in competitions
Within a year we could consider the 3 best results of a pilot and compare it with the winners of the contests. We can use the following formular:
Ri=1/3*(Pmax1/P1+Pmax2/P2+Pmax3/p3)*1000
Ri=individual Ranking, P1, P2, P3 are the points of the regarded pilot, Pmax1, Pmax2, Pmax3 are the points of the winners in contest 1, 2 and 3. You get a number between 0 and 1000.

2. Skill of the participating pilots
We must also consider the skill of the participating pilots. We can use a skill factor Fs, based upon the rankings of the winners. We use the top 3 pilots.
Fs=1/9*(R11+R12+R13+R21+R22+R23+R31+R32+R33)/1000
R11=Ranking of winner in contest 1, R12=Ranking of 2nd in contest 2, .......

3. Specifics of the competition
We must consider the ratio between rated days and number of flight days in a competition. We get the following factor:
Fc= (Fr1/Ft1+Fr2/Ft2+Fr3/Ft3)
Fr1=rated flights of contest1, Ft1=total flights of contest1, Fr2=.....

4. Result
Now we can calculate the ranking R of the considered pilot.
R=Ri*Fs*Fc
If we want to consider more differences between the competitions we can introduce more F factors.

This system based in great parts upon the calculation of the FAI IGC ranking.

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congo
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by congo » Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:14 am

witor wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:19 am
I think the current pilot ranking list is totally meaningless as it only shows how much someone flies and not how good pilots are.
I'm assuming this thread is about the ranking list in Condor Club website?

There is some benefit to having a general ranking list that doesn't mean anything accurate.

Firstly, at a glance you can see who spends WAY to much time flying Condor!

Secondly, do we really want to know just how badly we compare to other pilots in a general ranking?
How many of us will lose hope if we really knew truth? Then, stop flying Condor out of frustration.

Personally, I like to think I'm a pretty good competitor in Condor, and the raw truth just might just
hurt my feelings, so yeah, I'm on the fence with this one guys :D
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by BOD1 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:27 pm

I read a lot of documentation about rating systems, it's a very interesting field, with different problematic aspects like Rating inflation, Rating manipulation, ...

A rating system makes it possible to calculate the skill level of a player in relation to other players with a certain degree of imprecision, based on the matches played. It is then theoretically possible to calculate the probability of victory of one player over another.
Here is an example:

Code: Select all

Player		Rating			Deviation (RD)
Robyfly RF	2253.3027150564185	rd: 49.95259122697735
UWE		2248.492671905065	rd: 35.867610664293494
Andrzej Czop	2231.8884071987663	rd: 87.60060399173629
CNorbee		2222.364512702584	rd: 38.038772913683616
Soenke		2221.7758976229406	rd: 33.97938656676767
Cruiser		2214.357499430798	rd: 34.856755369459115
We measure player’s strength in the form of an interval: the lowest value in the interval is the player’s rating minus twice the RD, and the
highest value is the player’s rating plus twice the RD. So, for example, UWE's rating is 2248 (no unit!) and the RD is 35, the interval would go from 2178 to 2318. We would then say that we’re 95% confident that UWE’s actual strength is between 2178 and 2318.
When a player has a low RD, the interval would be narrow, so that we would be 95% confident about a player’s strength being in a small interval of values.
Less you play, more the deviation increases.
In addition to the rating and deviation, the volatility of each player is calculated. The volatility measure indicates the degree of expected fluctuation in a player’s rating. The volatility measure is high when a player has erratic performances (e.g., when the player has had exceptionally strong results after a period of stability), and the volatility measure is low when the player performs at a consistent level.
Rating could then reach an abnormal level (like 1000000) if a player does low performances then suddenly beats the best rated player, or 0 if a one of the best players is last in a competition.

I still have to find a way to constrain this volatility and because of the probabilistic approach, I'm not sure the rating can be used to produce a ranking (maybe if I strongly restrain the volatility?)
Usually, charts are displayed with intervals, and not a individual ranking, like this:

Code: Select all

Rating		Nb of players
[2700-2800]	1
[2500-2600]	7
[2400-2500] 	12
[2300-2400]	45
...
[1000-1100]	20
[<1000]		10 (or not displayed)
I retained the Glicko2 system (Elo-MMR looked better and manipulation-proof but I absolutely did not understand how it works, I only found an implementation in RUST and I do not have the level to understand and redevelop it in Java :oops: ) and I developed this system in Java, largely inspired by glicko2js then I made some tests based on Condor Club competitions since 2008.

The dataset must be selected with care, so I retained only finished individual competitions (I'll see how to integrate team based competitions later), with at least 3 valid race days and a least 3 scored days (in CC competition, organizer can define overall score is based on the N best days of each competitor), at least 5 scored competitors per days.
Then I compute scores and ranking for the competition and only retain competitors with at least as many results as days retained for the overall calculation and an overall score > 0.

Glicko2 computes rating on a 2 persons match basis, so for a race, I create a list of matches like this:

Code: Select all

Ranking of the race:
#1 - Player A
#2 - Players B & C (ex æquo)
#3 - Player D

Code: Select all

That gives these matches:
A wins against B
A wins against C
A wins against D
B draws against C
B wins against D
C wins against D
Each computation uses previous rating, deviation and volatility of each player, with a default rating of 1500 and deviation of 300 for first-see players.

Interesting bibliography on rating:
Performance rating algorithms: https://repository.middlebury.edu/islan ... m/OBJ/view
Glicko: http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko.pdf and http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf
Elo-MMR: https://cs.stanford.edu/people/paulliu/ ... 1-elor.pdf
FAI ranking: https://rankingdata.fai.org/sc3d.pdf
Feedbacks and thoughts on rating: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue43/elo-hello and https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/e ... s.3487422/

I continue testing, I retained 237 competitions to rate, it's about ~3000 players.
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by BOD1 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:57 pm

It seems my filters are good enough to avoid extreme volatility :)
Here is a preliminary chart from 237 finished competitions since 2008 until competition "[OPEN] 1st Virtual Sailplane Grand Prix - World Final 2021" (there are about 10 finished-but-not-closed competitions hanging on CC, I will close them this week if organizers doesn't show up):

Code: Select all

[2200-2300]	3
[2100-2200]	7
[2000-2100]	18
[1900-2000]	48
[1800-1900]	54
[1700-1800]	70
[1600-1700]	102
[1500-1600]	103
[1400-1500]	120
[1300-1400]	124
[1200-1300]	129
[1100-1200]	121
[1000-1100]	87
[900-1000]	28
[800-900]	5
[700-800]	2
And the rating (sorry for alignement, not easy with the forum editor):

Code: Select all

TimKuijpers		2241.8938	rd: 87.13694176455601
Witor			2238.4134	rd: 73.05039140343152
Maymar			2209.7544	rd: 114.14978098520928
QuMaPa			2166.1914	rd: 134.34748503227064
Ejelaci			2144.0480	rd: 133.5125639860953
Wiek			2132.6301	rd: 71.85810743044713
EP | Erik		2130.6494	rd: 88.32115024924032
TimoA			2130.2772	rd: 111.54283143028026
Charon			2127.9020	rd: 150.3732141533566
Lg			2102.1751	rd: 146.6614854449561
LSanyika		2093.4205	rd: 114.37183100377212
Kuba			2081.2854	rd: 68.12452813501426
TAF			2072.2995	rd: 90.89848973391913
Cris_franzini		2071.2297	rd: 86.6037449482879
Nicolas Pizzolante	2070.0649	rd: 77.16689822373392
Jan schulz		2062.2247	rd: 111.0370516906022
Thibeau			2059.1518	rd: 135.3067060298829
Manolo			2054.9406	rd: 84.49863317712617
Iann Benesovsky		2049.5838	rd: 86.92528964320648
Dan Hender		2047.8834	rd: 97.14699985798876
Thijs Bastiaanse	2028.5009	rd: 135.73568355108767
Fox9				2027.4049	rd: 158.85462450571117
ClementAllen				2023.8788	rd: 94.86696136422816
Brian-BMC (#1)				2016.8785	rd: 58.67546193327186
Cruiser				2009.0752	rd: 146.13138652722807
PLP				2005.2886	rd: 106.76914664791684
UWE				2000.7513	rd: 92.2321649371043
AM Guettler				2000.3303	rd: 69.53235100413768
T.broty				1997.9377	rd: 79.13784213677064
NICATO				1997.8629	rd: 76.63041108495521
NO				1996.6516	rd: 176.74382698881624
Knausz Mihaly				1993.1803	rd: 68.9430883171481
CNorbee				1991.8280	rd: 78.01190874229484
Thiesbruins				1989.6969	rd: 104.62327490448102
Luengo Maximiliano				1981.1962	rd: 85.92474749651173
Congo				1975.6851	rd: 232.20482356157353
Timkie				1973.1075	rd: 75.73437055408809
Chris - Alpha Sieben X-Ray				1972.8963	rd: 102.53647766154607
Moroccan pilot				1969.9851	rd: 147.6048637404558
BAI				1968.5902	rd: 152.9879826408988
Frosch Kermit				1966.5979	rd: 105.3442297016614
Guillaume Trichard				1964.8142	rd: 148.41071892694688
Sylvain2AB				1962.0482	rd: 145.31618031245742
Norma				1960.6825	rd: 134.42883807143195
22				1960.2972	rd: 164.95750193569245
Dinog (#2)				1959.8374	rd: 66.70550955953216
Frankls10				1958.5644	rd: 60.00162947418138
MarkRebuck				1954.8661	rd: 136.23084400789506
Z.Z.alB.H				1951.2082	rd: 142.04265682921613
Martin Baran				1950.7390	rd: 90.97463628852978
M.Canfield				1949.4416	rd: 83.823951290982
Horwil				1948.8858	rd: 176.972911133891
Micco54				1946.5754	rd: 175.02645613268325
CristianoConrado				1945.9494	rd: 76.64888390738103
Robin				1940.7549	rd: 139.91293110243188
Flo1G				1940.3996	rd: 83.66357628715447
Eliott McAleese				1937.6428	rd: 105.31237032413213
B.Fest				1936.1975	rd: 87.56732129485891
Tonyh				1931.9223	rd: 147.10103820205998
Nko				1929.5744	rd: 150.20096852107812
Foerstair				1925.7028	rd: 110.7938398572656
AirMan				1924.7675	rd: 118.31659629340103
SOI				1924.4125	rd: 140.13799623910214
RMontiel				1924.2204	rd: 103.67297395415846
Jim Acketoft				1924.1548	rd: 661.9096815855202
Robban				1923.7575	rd: 159.48116241535556
DeHiro				1923.2578	rd: 102.54473880300989
ElRasta				1918.7181	rd: 80.972555439331
Pedrin				1914.8419	rd: 83.66345465084973
Jdarrain				1911.3124	rd: 80.57474509625992
Pityesz				1906.7527	rd: 147.09089583870835
Santimesquida				1906.6325	rd: 77.87567697932884
Alohvynchuk				1906.2999	rd: 85.76171655107892
Philippe_PLT				1904.1942	rd: 79.42655153835959
Sprunga72				1903.1179	rd: 146.35622589798191
DougS				1901.0110	rd: 106.08222541101041
Darius				1898.6779	rd: 95.99549770483682
Philipp Kapferer				1897.0209	rd: 104.24441501947909
Giacodall94				1895.7220	rd: 95.48102034719484
Nikolai Neiva				1895.5560	rd: 251.29357395182765
Floyd141				1892.3021	rd: 120.62137556084635
LuisSaut				1892.0311	rd: 114.08712608531994
Centanni_ciro				1891.6519	rd: 84.09826482604802
Wity				1884.5499	rd: 78.60412356715322
Lukie				1884.4760	rd: 147.0895995941647
Lorenzo Cucchi				1884.2024	rd: 86.31329429997294
Fazol				1882.4963	rd: 152.98243904536625
Lucio Zanassi				1881.1905	rd: 84.09803000034664
6T2				1880.6802	rd: 187.98565296222242
Kedder				1880.1690	rd: 171.91689377991716
Jon Holland				1878.3219	rd: 75.05884123144915
Basil Fawlty				1876.4328	rd: 158.1084471708419
DennisTerp(SXD)				1876.0062	rd: 111.02954570152716
Andresdlh				1873.0337	rd: 89.41717030134626
RJF				1870.1270	rd: 98.38671730367905
GunnarGronlien				1866.5728	rd: 225.58742043307436
D7Luke				1865.2453	rd: 75.80932218470868
Alioth				1862.9315	rd: 60.65518150680713
Julio Sosa S.				1861.6725	rd: 113.14335804183854
Jorgeiii				1857.0609	rd: 162.57551394925255
Campolina (EWC)				1856.8227	rd: 150.5877766064345
GeorgeWhite				1856.0882	rd: 137.4366294908189
Javier solans (#3)				1855.8525	rd: 77.02797640338322
Negroask18				1850.1109	rd: 80.78387054649865
Matthijs Bruins				1847.6489	rd: 152.98051432720897
AgustinSauro				1846.6502	rd: 126.11499602527687
Tim B				1846.5464	rd: 79.42642465110066
Siemensthermikkurbel				1844.6130	rd: 147.13492760082724
ClemensSC				1842.9948	rd: 107.26426030105051
Dpluigi				1842.1191	rd: 65.41163105190194
Goldenhawk77				1840.0840	rd: 66.39740629932231
NormanGordon				1838.0320	rd: 164.66480957012118
Leon.B				1836.1934	rd: 103.5242917874904
Love2Fly				1835.5711	rd: 158.1064033078501
Lanzimat				1834.3545	rd: 109.34823103556108
Yhuki Nagasaki				1832.8890	rd: 232.19958440778993
KaBaj				1832.2324	rd: 146.11080645874657
Dgtfer				1828.4721	rd: 78.98666912785379
Tiberius				1826.5111	rd: 86.06072069000751
David R				1824.8500	rd: 187.98319123918535
PEPEJIM				1824.6640	rd: 119.67576579469788
A.R.				1822.9585	rd: 111.02795324403603
GravityRider				1820.6747	rd: 92.40629536162128
Teppie thermiek				1817.3877	rd: 110.66278789170116
Bdt Alain				1812.7701	rd: 89.59535301993247
LZ				1811.3890	rd: 144.71346726996651
Migue M.Boero (#5)				1810.4161	rd: 64.18097204818419
BRA				1806.5084	rd: 156.30544033719846
Mick Webb				1806.3948	rd: 117.10017623142559
MoralesR				1804.7708	rd: 81.21820191887737
Snip				1796.3196	rd: 147.55994647395497
PRZ				1794.2798	rd: 143.60044289900986
Cbrunschen				1793.2754	rd: 131.22941202663495
Jkarvine				1792.7841	rd: 239.55403593966759
FedeFran				1792.6299	rd: 72.2136309920839
Iglesiasmarianod				1789.1143	rd: 144.86479087616408
Velivosges				1788.4784	rd: 175.7677154254172
Mattmckrell6H				1787.9295	rd: 85.48906633216589
Max Mensing				1787.4359	rd: 97.14426358392167
Vitaliy | VG				1787.1977	rd: 120.6952296403244
R.Aguiar				1786.8451	rd: 133.62289827060303
Nimbus 4D				1786.7178	rd: 181.40955940112588
Finnkristensen				1785.6028	rd: 138.0191917062912
G104S7				1783.3536	rd: 81.78126219519247
Slavko				1783.2084	rd: 157.28511353553694
Robert Haugen				1782.5958	rd: 71.15332659581314
Schulle				1782.4416	rd: 147.13397193004013
D.Dupire				1776.5277	rd: 141.9448880507306
Spolita				1775.1820	rd: 79.71680171216374
Tomprid3				1772.9310	rd: 77.18215517935613
Alf				1772.8131	rd: 146.6320938180499
T.Nilsson				1769.0197	rd: 187.98111933580813
Jpvalenu				1768.9500	rd: 98.13363243063377
Friggitotti				1767.1224	rd: 66.72078359598065
Emmanuel				1766.1507	rd: 67.96063408653673
Tom Bouctou				1765.6563	rd: 152.45231120269204
RW				1764.9744	rd: 112.41815200233594
Jaroslaw Kajoch				1764.7258	rd: 79.86358545733741
JKK				1761.6111	rd: 54.14750299046039
Siraly				1761.0724	rd: 152.07853186407152
Roberto Zanini				1758.0992	rd: 156.30424040165212
Tim.faver				1757.8329	rd: 117.09991750480296
JoshuaSetford				1757.6041	rd: 97.14405915634937
Koroglu9011				1757.1385	rd: 79.42626642981283
SebaBollatti				1756.5310	rd: 119.21007505754723
XL136				1754.5198	rd: 90.52678933160614
FerminFer				1748.0185	rd: 81.27656956733314
OlVox				1747.7102	rd: 146.34958757817193
Szenko				1745.5053	rd: 164.94675887706867
Sm4llie				1745.0041	rd: 225.5835853150377
Titas Jovaisa				1744.7805	rd: 95.99447754138627
Ackkie				1742.4621	rd: 156.32712725760462
Sasa				1740.4958	rd: 64.49878191717903
Philoo				1739.7680	rd: 69.46675841919556
Lacerda				1739.1294	rd: 133.62225378184147
Neroni				1737.4476	rd: 58.776702959076125
PhilKel				1735.3038	rd: 149.17890406076293
RaM				1734.0738	rd: 167.98273708259336
KH				1733.2292	rd: 575.1052363466314
Janus				1731.3317	rd: 144.98664889314108
OliverRamsay				1727.7723	rd: 97.14387711429117
Dodo				1727.0537	rd: 147.21698196038756
Turcoall				1726.8982	rd: 81.65188637015197
Horst Jahnke				1721.4427	rd: 51.578528498830096
DrDiman				1721.1905	rd: 151.77533745814833
Redfela				1720.4103	rd: 87.10963275625812
Gonzariera				1720.3305	rd: 84.09522003241558
Dimchansky				1718.7395	rd: 148.14709473477708
Kest4s				1716.4017	rd: 146.07934234012797
Giacomo				1716.2721	rd: 105.14090220816891
Jono Jones				1715.4796	rd: 93.84849997301352
Golden eagle				1715.2218	rd: 78.25808927615046
Rodas				1714.2326	rd: 140.66797095443445
Mattm				1713.1894	rd: 187.97943712988013
Dziuq				1712.4250	rd: 45.84656787614432
Stoffel060790				1710.4203	rd: 125.0821264507042
Michelmc				1708.1856	rd: 147.03264220789654
Xbicho				1704.8097	rd: 75.07678009288067
Torben				1704.1389	rd: 64.92303871851166
Tjsoler (#11)				1702.6340	rd: 65.19831545704167
Pepe Dentone				1698.8744	rd: 136.72894190201964
Jura				1698.3382	rd: 135.12139204665075
Federico Schilling				1697.6454	rd: 134.27308715565317
JD Sowers				1697.1173	rd: 131.76503623698878
Dicxit				1696.2221	rd: 170.63612267930955
WDP				1695.7820	rd: 147.11563470960445
Janv stratum				1694.9374	rd: 84.41488103814434
Rafal37				1693.7591	rd: 176.73033898294136
Yann 40				1692.3292	rd: 155.32299861419344
Thiesb				1690.0595	rd: 138.5490506432915
Crippled Buzzard				1689.3948	rd: 158.33797685376985
Soenke				1688.4361	rd: 155.30572399632462
Pckormic01				1685.7975	rd: 83.66268926808716
Enjoleur				1683.8608	rd: 104.61560275168505
Julian M Delfabro				1682.8446	rd: 73.33999768280275
Memphis				1681.3514	rd: 140.4019873182488
Jonas Angenendt				1680.6680	rd: 169.90017572527682
Christer sjoberg				1680.5158	rd: 105.36094923590032
AlbertoBadano				1680.1818	rd: 78.45977389074918
Rumpler				1680.1181	rd: 152.9738268845372
Virking				1678.3072	rd: 87.95869740586623
TMayer				1678.1999	rd: 68.84715282407093
J-gustafsson				1672.6317	rd: 182.24593546809623
Denis76				1672.3747	rd: 151.22952813147552
MRO - Michel Robert				1671.3019	rd: 95.58602208239238
Carlosmikelsen (#10)				1670.8996	rd: 54.237689051698624
GosHawk				1669.8066	rd: 163.43113673524297
Miguelmazzarella				1669.0427	rd: 78.00006640972516
Henrik Carlsen				1668.9158	rd: 137.63990203793165
Nicolas 156				1668.5774	rd: 104.61540219669764
Ardix				1667.8411	rd: 96.78901484984635
Cirrus133				1666.4728	rd: 149.99759373221926
Johnvs76				1665.6523	rd: 122.26731066723119
R0B				1665.2525	rd: 152.97343860723768
Nahuel				1664.4234	rd: 215.90455388368446
PMG				1664.2748	rd: 130.2983847748794
Ulik				1664.1087	rd: 55.00023168275265
Icare				1663.6632	rd: 109.20796927692356
Bart Leysen				1663.3532	rd: 145.90989124835454
Emotodude				1662.4406	rd: 80.28693041266683
Stefan Beach				1661.4427	rd: 85.44077370489426
Zbych				1660.7473	rd: 58.49380033955786
Robfrias				1660.6270	rd: 175.15081682736204
Svennevs				1660.2397	rd: 83.662640075749
DanGigantic				1657.4182	rd: 141.53847746994188
H. Gorecki (HG)				1657.3592	rd: 187.97814453309718
Stuartlawc4				1657.3378	rd: 158.33732384459125
OMarques				1657.2015	rd: 128.12581996072788
Sydewinder				1656.9006	rd: 86.97016849239878
Jotero				1655.4166	rd: 81.65486551202014
Nicolas Becerra				1654.9792	rd: 108.29914332664043
Azcona EAZ				1654.9518	rd: 58.79942608630694
Leo Salotti				1653.5675	rd: 84.09449522461637
Discus583				1653.3052	rd: 146.0567257156125
Spy20071				1652.3144	rd: 176.72941416021013
Migueloco (#4)				1651.6737	rd: 51.332812192011204
Carlos Almeida				1650.7037	rd: 156.30231313040926
Bernie54				1650.6170	rd: 85.43606162055421
Gaxelsson				1650.6065	rd: 132.5033071784439
SamJN				1650.3460	rd: 141.4177426519508
MikelTT				1648.4254	rd: 109.47018714620768
Flysanspower				1647.5091	rd: 75.08076021982883
Vinnie50				1647.0933	rd: 89.62730721778804
Rocky				1646.3920	rd: 239.55083454086272
Julio Sosa				1646.3920	rd: 233.58093842520546
Ew1368				1646.1900	rd: 117.09949162860354
Alexglide				1644.6145	rd: 79.16920538267642
ChrisBarrott				1643.4772	rd: 86.73507289932317
Ericinexile				1643.0949	rd: 106.49380004408133
Losnively				1642.9542	rd: 152.97291886999972
S19				1642.0341	rd: 102.22728343420391
Zakrzak				1639.2124	rd: 146.59707913372034
MCFulcrum				1636.6195	rd: 147.13247414043104
Martin Ochoa				1636.4810	rd: 72.68776616250877
Phoebus				1636.1083	rd: 144.7384298722894
Minskiy				1635.5214	rd: 152.97276233803328
Ermy				1634.1862	rd: 93.7556246748955
DeltaLima				1633.4128	rd: 139.46319516317476
RaiderOne (RO)				1630.6860	rd: 140.63016606350942
Psf				1629.5119	rd: 61.97494393866931
Martinztti				1628.9982	rd: 84.09429365298206
Rallek				1626.1057	rd: 85.29482577370482
HELIAS REGIS				1624.1410	rd: 154.09708214370806
Tornavi				1624.0595	rd: 121.6087840858691
Pgoreczny				1622.8215	rd: 69.94238736673599
Wiktor34				1622.5814	rd: 63.40899876484617
Marpilot				1619.2366	rd: 57.240318625854215
Cpt. Frikadel				1619.1596	rd: 151.78696375531916
Norbe				1618.9310	rd: 161.86911442706625
Oldrich Slavicek				1611.7138	rd: 142.9863136545615
PiedAlu				1611.6774	rd: 92.84577404682506
R Semo				1610.8697	rd: 176.72871086715395
AdamHJY				1610.0370	rd: 152.38332431927225
Tomasz/GD5/				1608.9390	rd: 154.82616135067974
Guy DIJON				1608.4732	rd: 152.97226324880288
Edurigon (#8)				1605.9675	rd: 58.741118094896855
Wuerfel				1603.3717	rd: 79.4261039532191
KrizOsijek				1603.3516	rd: 144.12985053644653
Xavier Bousquet				1602.5376	rd: 151.08783563744038
CELIO PIMENTA				1602.2945	rd: 156.30177553285583
Eldon gifford				1601.5289	rd: 187.97724148501874
Lucas via (#7)				1600.3268	rd: 66.34802150625839
Gypaete B.				1598.4317	rd: 96.20434384329664
VashGen				1597.8731	rd: 103.97637992856508
Beefgravy				1597.6281	rd: 117.09937984588407
Aurelien.kameriez				1595.2867	rd: 176.09895567119315
LJanzam				1593.3963	rd: 94.91240721282931
Olimarec				1593.3879	rd: 151.84974194416452
CSchuwirth				1592.2082	rd: 60.48464375956242
Sistem				1591.9986	rd: 124.7357815408119
Zejdla				1590.2499	rd: 158.09906594693126
Ccalamante				1588.3128	rd: 65.84927681575995
Zampachr				1585.9724	rd: 175.7637768907896
DavisChappins				1584.7332	rd: 74.13128624820472
Cristian Martinez				1583.4257	rd: 48.86602386284332
Davidforzy				1582.8756	rd: 145.5810606753159
PH722 WW				1582.3001	rd: 123.22882034113863
Coolrastaman				1580.3882	rd: 109.67538252451752
Raiper				1579.4896	rd: 111.24302672148956
SCALABRIN				1578.6466	rd: 117.72825381314082
Vostok				1577.1290	rd: 86.88905419167418
Vaice				1576.0288	rd: 95.78956390853308
WalterVidela				1575.5573	rd: 66.85277410082662
Geza				1574.2565	rd: 108.3856693217005
Skipper17				1574.0964	rd: 131.7519955603151
Marianito				1572.9725	rd: 76.48763866651672
Reynald parent				1572.6669	rd: 93.62064375267126
D-5526				1571.5824	rd: 179.49924328943416
AlexZander				1569.4251	rd: 176.72822908588884
Stefke				1568.7511	rd: 152.9717308854856
Ventus2a				1568.6875	rd: 138.5469950056333
Tommes				1567.6358	rd: 140.26636033129074
Marc Schrder IWZ				1567.1587	rd: 147.07906241987732
Manufick				1565.5461	rd: 219.1449191390263
Domasz				1564.8671	rd: 95.99390375120241
Apieper				1564.5194	rd: 58.538422405499716
VH-GPL				1564.0405	rd: 76.26615656781657
Yuji_Kataoka				1563.5063	rd: 229.16893212383414
J3P				1562.5172	rd: 133.6208858536554
Korkiley				1562.1709	rd: 172.40748706714817
Jancsika				1561.3184	rd: 152.97165777561605
Quiquemanso				1561.2424	rd: 81.78303373877014
EDB				1561.1101	rd: 72.05269075265873
Marek Baran				1559.9996	rd: 54.13112062832656
Wgrupa				1558.8370	rd: 124.37253366195547
Fabio Daniele				1558.1988	rd: 63.58744666215131
Bigand-M				1556.0910	rd: 64.89241678146661
Gosper				1554.9852	rd: 161.86871490325836
Andrea				1554.3080	rd: 91.37684476081259
Matkop				1554.0136	rd: 213.4854422125393
Paulo.Menezes(Koka)				1553.8852	rd: 156.30144367391122
SEGUI				1551.9559	rd: 92.49508115953525
Chris Emerson				1549.0661	rd: 117.09931259308716
3C				1548.2398	rd: 125.89193182241827
H. Bentheim				1548.0754	rd: 149.09774380553853
R.Badham				1547.5300	rd: 64.25510327094284
Ssolfa				1547.0793	rd: 215.9034171307843
Lanko				1546.6263	rd: 182.24427845024434
Aanne3				1546.5728	rd: 113.5142094342265
Ctietz				1546.4867	rd: 138.54682764288106
Kostas Kostalampros				1545.3847	rd: 152.38305203398505
Juanmartinbagnis vn1 (#9)				1545.1775	rd: 56.797271644458704
MarceloCenci				1544.6615	rd: 89.22383379079503
GIGGI 71				1543.9217	rd: 144.67495839327898
DimitriChalles				1539.0000	rd: 144.80226094672977
Dgilou				1538.9867	rd: 180.04387803623732
Araldo				1535.5389	rd: 139.47759918718427
Ronny				1535.3526	rd: 179.2413104283415
Michal Szalek				1534.7371	rd: 176.9607346331703
DELGADO.L				1534.6327	rd: 85.23566565974268
Jarecki1979				1534.5645	rd: 95.7048050198671
JPT				1534.4926	rd: 83.66250387836789
Borika				1534.0231	rd: 148.11876660948536
Lionel - 4V				1532.8034	rd: 128.125015550596
Carlos Jimenez CJ				1532.5487	rd: 108.64388134060464
Eman				1531.2749	rd: 125.74772020979164
Dikennek (viper)				1530.6813	rd: 104.6143791812719
Philippe VDD				1529.2005	rd: 117.88391526744682
Honzaaf				1529.0291	rd: 152.97143716773135
Isarien				1528.2828	rd: 175.7634345728063
KristofferdS				1528.1063	rd: 211.45636242967137
MichalCenzartowicz				1527.5506	rd: 108.00683489724044
Kelvin vanBaalen				1527.2980	rd: 109.53578482337149
Olli1770				1525.9957	rd: 141.19289292089925
Niklasl				1524.2861	rd: 138.54672480252202
Foxlima13				1523.6607	rd: 145.36070867443112
Peter Toth				1522.4325	rd: 154.28317670442212
Frederic				1520.2642	rd: 82.5482027691322
Tuomas Parnanen				1517.6166	rd: 79.58062822172003
Le mime				1516.8674	rd: 121.37408245661666
Peter Suchan				1516.1386	rd: 214.34132760923274
Nbz				1514.4993	rd: 152.199773201429
Terry1954 TF1				1513.3614	rd: 137.56885997738732
Santiago demodena				1509.5210	rd: 82.6768551746523
Bbonamin				1508.1574	rd: 82.04491419697058
Spirals				1507.4446	rd: 54.5800536235045
Pupush				1506.7307	rd: 152.97137686833742
Alejandro.Goni				1504.8357	rd: 136.39424241080454
Zok				1504.5587	rd: 140.40783102277297
Daniel L				1502.1500	rd: 99.3838464199622
RAM's				1501.7875	rd: 53.494332800959725
Vlovs				1501.6972	rd: 128.3418541784923
Chrisp				1501.0830	rd: 146.35506076649597
Kestrel!9				1500.5042	rd: 117.09928986759444
DC				1500.0000	rd: 269.623839014772
JSmiley				1499.7639	rd: 77.82745221103075
Sam Betz				1499.0870	rd: 52.23275763501948
Jaume				1498.3310	rd: 128.12497902487897
Chris Oxholm - EPX				1496.1300	rd: 140.36214782311256
SteveC				1495.1809	rd: 105.13922195018546
Rafael-YV				1494.7375	rd: 104.83833296874738
Ryfaren				1493.3034	rd: 182.24415075444202
VidasB				1492.8633	rd: 95.99386094102302
Brunoc				1492.7514	rd: 84.09381204069068
Walter lomb				1491.7662	rd: 92.23321871608822
Twists				1488.4599	rd: 147.30310445606958
EirikBM				1486.9882	rd: 80.23452704703577
Olexandr Novikov				1486.9016	rd: 72.11555853036883
Finoty				1486.4398	rd: 64.7104635716728
JP21				1486.0045	rd: 144.80222050558208
Kurt weiner				1485.8422	rd: 109.1752026020851
PhilippeFP				1484.7643	rd: 105.36274312138504
Vasama				1484.4324	rd: 152.97139176946155
C.Glover				1484.0613	rd: 124.69623042426447
Bob Fielder				1482.5014	rd: 142.72895436567123
Aviatormark				1482.3351	rd: 134.87379363619283
Ixil08				1481.8489	rd: 79.42607360224697
Ricsventus				1480.7325	rd: 152.38300627961425
Yeti				1479.8549	rd: 131.84916458630602
Bandi				1479.3049	rd: 154.91877562925933
Rasmus M				1479.2037	rd: 88.38323757687644
MatteoSauli				1478.5328	rd: 105.13923767772127
Piama				1477.6960	rd: 93.10266023860999
GoaWay				1476.9996	rd: 152.97141344773152
Koala				1475.5998	rd: 224.38204003510546
Raduga				1475.0255	rd: 131.0759329467751
Facufernandez				1474.0883	rd: 74.94205171274548
Fabio Weber				1473.9746	rd: 174.587094995046
Rogerio Coutinho				1472.2688	rd: 107.32489925449663
Julio C Perez (#6)				1470.1258	rd: 56.71954347774684
Lospisman				1469.5226	rd: 73.1092032922569
OBsoaring				1468.8150	rd: 169.63018109702946
HenryMorrisKHV				1468.5731	rd: 97.1432373353736
Harald Scheimzuber				1466.9802	rd: 120.45986564540748
HP14				1466.9291	rd: 116.19045654395094
Jake Matthews				1466.4589	rd: 141.5377097501729
Matoayail				1466.3209	rd: 118.56776892149179
Michael Abell				1465.7116	rd: 98.49546727141576
Marco22				1462.1340	rd: 152.97148187120604
SBANDU				1461.8846	rd: 105.13927332704003
IntiWaman				1460.9294	rd: 132.10484935369658
Skizzo				1460.8572	rd: 72.63598493858872
RianMonnahan				1460.7051	rd: 151.19184921662
CSIMONNEAUD				1460.7046	rd: 82.71507573126372
Julio Cesar Perez				1460.3897	rd: 90.85978013284132
Fabricamp				1459.3999	rd: 92.64533615954608
BrunoCamposBCS				1457.0668	rd: 156.3013971316089
Chenque				1455.9657	rd: 141.41716483092603
Zeljko Livancic ZL7				1455.3685	rd: 75.16014732580885
Aradac				1454.8840	rd: 125.29050522234851
Xavier				1454.8835	rd: 104.61441991720096
Flowmo				1454.5190	rd: 151.38171068739308
Cowtreat				1453.2395	rd: 113.5142099815737
Freddy Suurland				1452.2413	rd: 150.5567890859233
Benke				1449.6027	rd: 213.48542277148906
Jantar2				1448.0406	rd: 105.43886063472556
Pavel Schukin				1447.7638	rd: 164.9426821557921
D. Roemer D-1503				1447.6416	rd: 145.9836446034868
GV1				1445.8981	rd: 139.97144480713422
Leadefilpo				1444.5495	rd: 74.84834287547496
J. Nemecek				1444.2261	rd: 63.43576238215644
T Hurn				1443.7296	rd: 76.02193372638894
Bre901				1443.5078	rd: 80.82122925787297
Rudekowal				1443.3221	rd: 67.35784851734192
9era				1441.1341	rd: 134.17684396279952
E.nyberg				1439.9805	rd: 182.2443641138913
Leglsch				1439.8356	rd: 152.9716471742016
Spiross				1439.7160	rd: 134.8310444671909
Cpasfaux				1439.4250	rd: 188.9057739722889
L.Faitz				1438.7851	rd: 167.9812700166645
Toddthahn				1437.4572	rd: 92.18027347156834
Andrzej Czop				1436.9746	rd: 187.09240585233357
Saik				1436.1814	rd: 148.88337556725003
Bela Kocsis				1435.2793	rd: 158.09878809805156
Krokodylak				1434.5535	rd: 157.31461001207822
Pere				1433.0090	rd: 144.80235149043807
Marcincia13				1432.9306	rd: 138.35621935917234
Szymon Kolek				1431.0922	rd: 176.72822447231061
Vlautert				1429.7581	rd: 202.8100931267286
Terry Navarro				1429.7351	rd: 215.90354174193004
Martindarrain				1428.9346	rd: 79.5383536535709
Nic27				1425.3707	rd: 164.94288340705114
Treckerface1973				1424.9701	rd: 152.9717991552179
Tomasz L				1423.9426	rd: 176.9610128795287
Adamos79				1423.8471	rd: 161.67308189947929
JuanVastik				1423.4266	rd: 75.45569374587784
TvR				1423.3831	rd: 87.3398559791815
Bluejet				1423.1854	rd: 110.04832587316196
Mapettar				1422.4815	rd: 105.13943707851665
Alpha-zoulou				1421.8014	rd: 147.77784007431313
Marc blanjean				1421.6110	rd: 131.22543140369436
Dc2mw				1421.5359	rd: 149.17089100348238
Xtralite147				1421.4891	rd: 152.62787763012642
Fang				1419.9352	rd: 146.35510670950637
S Vidal SVL				1418.3690	rd: 128.12520570716356
Macsimc				1417.5373	rd: 152.9718876795991
001london				1417.0826	rd: 137.43561304723636
Lianpu				1417.0682	rd: 138.71449492153215
G.bnt				1416.4992	rd: 101.1989501184009
DaHugs				1416.0802	rd: 152.38318705311218
Carlos Garberi				1415.7362	rd: 78.69977949016837
ZK				1415.5337	rd: 187.9770432103292
XCNuse				1414.5719	rd: 91.17925639253949
Carlos E. Contreras				1412.3555	rd: 84.09403353772778
PIT				1411.6478	rd: 60.30291387565128
Pat Luneville				1410.8927	rd: 163.0688826142099
Rcy				1406.0270	rd: 148.07973764222447
Stefano74				1405.8334	rd: 105.13953980245849
Holza				1405.7914	rd: 136.93227689625323
RevelladoGonza (#14)				1405.1318	rd: 76.66346437778171
Seijffert				1403.7838	rd: 138.54729214170538
AGO				1403.5436	rd: 115.71572127726199
Jmuelas				1403.3864	rd: 141.41737160725313
Raik				1400.7987	rd: 144.9854226370039
Willy				1400.1136	rd: 152.9721279483599
H. Ziegler				1397.7266	rd: 179.49957510475278
Paczo1				1395.2965	rd: 159.6501701113373
Ka6jab				1393.6845	rd: 69.58854769684028
AlexHolswilder				1393.0230	rd: 85.33033766833174
Funglider				1392.7335	rd: 114.31837574057079
Brad Soanes				1391.0307	rd: 83.15123393977959
Mgclements				1390.4711	rd: 117.09940312048644
T.Rogacki				1390.3552	rd: 260.9214247157246
Rvidal911				1390.1748	rd: 134.2724556241634
P51				1389.9971	rd: 151.2601880828073
Gliderpilotmp				1389.1852	rd: 105.13966244943478
Carlitos				1388.2032	rd: 84.09417339331306
Saeroglt				1386.6575	rd: 182.24491853770283
Polach Petr				1385.7947	rd: 158.33663577643355
1K				1385.3480	rd: 106.2295661721608
Jose basilico (#12)				1385.1563	rd: 105.22975994641644
Renequeiroz				1384.4265	rd: 153.3127558973016
Hugochoy				1382.7631	rd: 95.21707070750797
Devisddf				1382.7299	rd: 90.15735659743994
Juhaszbe				1382.6899	rd: 152.97241413544435
Dambou				1382.2456	rd: 137.4075341378834
Javo99				1380.0159	rd: 84.16812976988443
PjS				1379.6622	rd: 114.35393694997474
RafaRS8				1378.7444	rd: 169.63049193682815
X5				1378.6386	rd: 161.12477597042192
Hans Iron				1377.3877	rd: 146.35111010523428
Franck6440				1376.8544	rd: 148.14469644284003
NATTHI				1375.1984	rd: 154.28425571498266
ACSnoopy				1373.5627	rd: 145.0366969279854
Lori				1372.5371	rd: 105.1398050199531
BNL-17				1371.2822	rd: 148.04061747585382
DHayday				1370.9793	rd: 141.538213477751
Zopp				1370.0476	rd: 148.1448228603037
Thermal (ZA)				1370.0283	rd: 166.97784547080045
Juanse76				1369.1391	rd: 79.9827013238568
Norby10				1368.6123	rd: 138.13937276994483
Eric Schverdorffer ES				1368.1396	rd: 148.0399204221639
JacekJJ				1367.8243	rd: 152.9726946064693
Manes				1365.7634	rd: 77.23983434949854
Vor250				1365.4030	rd: 172.26023314735548
JWulf				1365.1715	rd: 98.237081692045
Bodo				1364.5932	rd: 70.52869446849299
Rui Silva				1361.7393	rd: 78.44085603078382
Nicolas Verdura (#15)				1361.5789	rd: 60.22962731693751
Alfonsordah				1360.7146	rd: 97.14346879538678
Nissed				1360.3915	rd: 152.97284737687093
A. Muller				1360.2483	rd: 156.30217349682397
Sky.high				1359.7035	rd: 187.9778272152926
AlexLapadu				1358.9117	rd: 104.61508525759308
Alanm (ATM)				1358.7346	rd: 167.98173585766946
Leitorp				1358.4826	rd: 137.79423140553817
BHudson				1358.2172	rd: 109.03842426104192
NimbusV6				1355.8565	rd: 142.43116925189443
Juan SanMartin				1353.6080	rd: 233.58093842520546
Florian Schmetzer 3T				1353.6080	rd: 239.55083454086272
Tomarnem				1353.2512	rd: 141.96355071885964
JamesN				1352.7779	rd: 232.19554080290007
Jkaraceylan				1351.4280	rd: 152.38359436651544
Jose3f				1350.8071	rd: 141.4177329942787
Foka				1349.4785	rd: 124.8570823645204
Mebarg				1349.4326	rd: 84.09446873249117
Mlucarno				1347.6782	rd: 82.00952163613312
Lucasgoldenzweig				1347.3279	rd: 161.4126725433921
Feri				1346.8420	rd: 72.3161901677922
David354				1346.7732	rd: 100.63995003030605
Vydasg				1345.4428	rd: 147.13260214962327
Nscherr				1344.8649	rd: 144.9858220566272
LSD90				1341.9092	rd: 117.09952581648773
YUR				1341.3494	rd: 139.16342571339328
Erwin vA				1340.9923	rd: 107.40049606872887
FELIPE JARPA				1339.9610	rd: 127.30476843583851
S.Bianchi (#13)				1338.9913	rd: 105.22976005266148
BarryTurner				1338.7873	rd: 146.35524706359473
Aviaattori				1338.3733	rd: 225.58183672510935
David_fr33				1336.7542	rd: 166.9887452729553
Eolo007				1335.1783	rd: 105.14019747287568
Xiongmao				1335.0066	rd: 162.53653828245658
Klaus Vang XYF				1334.8709	rd: 133.73180902730323
ONDRYS				1334.5202	rd: 91.35162593493017
Volavka				1333.3851	rd: 137.20745724287818
D38				1332.9900	rd: 176.72971673678532
Haakan				1332.7184	rd: 139.03407271926008
Paco Redondo				1332.0380	rd: 57.93096637024594
Chepur				1330.6603	rd: 152.9735420272387
Fabrice				1329.0200	rd: 150.65453015423074
Dolpiper				1328.7209	rd: 126.11093388816828
Xantyp				1328.4621	rd: 79.42615887531738
Fabry_distefano				1326.8613	rd: 85.02500028409972
Josechanes@gmail.com				1324.8770	rd: 119.49867487447614
Bobby Royal				1323.9452	rd: 117.71369934884025
Willsontugg				1323.2395	rd: 141.53868725596018
Aiglon77				1322.5914	rd: 135.25882209655032
Bunke				1321.0598	rd: 141.64281046704684
Max Maslak MLM				1320.9548	rd: 178.4952318329433
Phil_deLaine				1320.2496	rd: 132.03537336070704
Happyharry				1320.2294	rd: 150.86507697883636
Paul foster psf				1318.4466	rd: 137.1338844369551
JF Gombault				1318.3572	rd: 245.67944747979772
Glider88				1316.8842	rd: 173.76860572645452
Bernard BRUN				1316.8086	rd: 105.9447880205412
Kimtoppari				1316.2231	rd: 144.97660813661076
DANIEL LUNEVILLE				1315.9894	rd: 140.38317795793594
Jakec				1315.7074	rd: 110.03442468471525
Stevebr1				1314.2416	rd: 138.50089205677554
Aero				1314.0731	rd: 147.56057883529982
Tomasz Zwolinski				1312.8683	rd: 176.9627897142479
Siketzsolt				1312.0965	rd: 139.97369067724404
Jefferson (JEF)				1311.8391	rd: 156.30287029995128
JOHN 5YA				1310.9765	rd: 71.96759636653651
Minik Frank				1310.9714	rd: 147.52992528503356
Christof Buettner				1308.2259	rd: 159.11968086253478
Anton Lovi				1308.1074	rd: 147.28247514854831
Hubert				1307.9415	rd: 150.09549304643127
Nimapoggy				1307.6795	rd: 104.61572124330857
Mikko				1306.1748	rd: 81.61777460237981
Zadmalck				1305.5920	rd: 135.94453252586325
Johanp				1305.1044	rd: 264.9658783665902
Smoke				1304.2897	rd: 78.31123919839776
Simonmeissner95				1302.9838	rd: 179.5013385102876
Duzgis				1302.9108	rd: 95.9942604834247
Steve Butler				1302.8340	rd: 172.26117911485514
Nbrandt				1302.2939	rd: 82.27627001366525
SIZ				1301.8820	rd: 105.14063181434297
Laurent LM1				1301.1960	rd: 119.06888349230168
Kulki				1298.5661	rd: 131.88740711159542
Sejr uller				1297.1642	rd: 148.14660272223878
RFelix				1296.6651	rd: 116.36895185604338
Olevold				1295.0452	rd: 141.96402877596904
Jez				1293.3472	rd: 117.09969304809484
Luis Caler				1292.9534	rd: 98.63537063620683
Jlazr				1292.3962	rd: 104.61594882535765
Versor22				1291.5641	rd: 175.01811083179007
Brotons pascal				1291.0120	rd: 164.9455830136377
Wadsworth				1290.9269	rd: 113.51550732805407
Reinhold				1290.2679	rd: 76.4227241955004
RobieStrony				1289.9415	rd: 152.88477306099156
Robyfly RF				1289.5307	rd: 189.86511877193735
MCapps				1286.7757	rd: 152.38422824693944
Diegosalido				1286.4476	rd: 77.88256767176118
Bidass				1286.2530	rd: 150.17138230033237
D.Schaeffler				1283.2713	rd: 147.13316791135895
Valerii Izvolskii				1283.1104	rd: 148.69356999870956
GliderpilotBAS				1282.5074	rd: 92.11959950230163
Pml3				1281.4136	rd: 97.33331784182468
Bernard L.				1281.2446	rd: 146.12739546282373
Flafly63				1280.5953	rd: 83.13510904327056
Josef Sykora				1278.6841	rd: 167.98257008889215
R1				1278.6830	rd: 148.050959976304
Grijander				1278.4990	rd: 81.59075892350648
Ariel SSM				1277.5063	rd: 116.17785686112744
Tic-Tac				1277.4526	rd: 147.08237196458506
K-mill				1277.1128	rd: 104.61619380567691
AntonW				1275.7761	rd: 76.64748155181783
NobleWizard				1275.4997	rd: 141.53930899784677
296				1275.1815	rd: 158.62495674730354
FinnTindal				1274.4245	rd: 138.4253827521277
Birgilzio				1274.4074	rd: 133.62209224182448
Major98				1273.3635	rd: 127.75561578967552
Gelo2				1273.2158	rd: 126.74212441277167
CHD-CHDEN				1272.6717	rd: 94.7759110281911
Jjt				1271.3749	rd: 133.95677410567748
Jbruna				1269.4868	rd: 82.61032540725654
LP				1269.0855	rd: 152.47087156754932
Mzeddd				1268.4641	rd: 89.62788796935489
CarlosCucu				1268.2522	rd: 95.18601608243284
Cristian Phillips				1266.2007	rd: 94.16680674887316
PUPI				1266.0988	rd: 176.9639866506227
Frank Ermecke				1265.1932	rd: 83.74398075958165
Kusiport				1264.3382	rd: 152.6120074127475
Jorgemarmor				1263.6195	rd: 110.79304939313057
Reginaldo				1263.4298	rd: 156.30377288096494
LEAN				1263.1595	rd: 151.90254195006145
Breznai Janos				1262.1049	rd: 130.42499560467954
IMcF				1260.5260	rd: 206.6374204901839
Jplatasv				1260.2055	rd: 91.85289650417631
Michele CSR				1259.2367	rd: 74.20725860740286
Marcodelta				1258.3699	rd: 115.84245736295978
SJDobby_SD3				1257.6395	rd: 146.35548184419707
GrungePilot				1257.3010	rd: 139.97532729692057
Sorbilli				1254.6909	rd: 116.0964804269075
HF1-GILOU				1253.1418	rd: 151.51724443579627
Zsevison				1252.7206	rd: 98.65641394705472
Cumulusotter				1251.7093	rd: 137.59895257400353
Laszlo70				1251.1686	rd: 150.56138674999877
Gusandreoni				1249.6551	rd: 111.15272235786067
Andy 1248				1248.7584	rd: 138.1133098725896
G-NUDL				1248.7451	rd: 88.96337921318442
Filipejsf				1248.1425	rd: 128.12713781773658
Hoggwild				1248.0429	rd: 187.98056388169846
Rhein25				1247.6551	rd: 89.62807087580984
MOm				1246.7236	rd: 130.93218472531393
Mangirdas115				1245.6268	rd: 88.64209921883513
ATZJOKER				1245.5288	rd: 127.60593555212627
Renda				1245.0770	rd: 126.27668158617917
Adriel Cuesta				1244.7927	rd: 83.5758783038908
Dead_albatross				1244.7852	rd: 117.09990482181935
ToninoTarsi				1243.8533	rd: 63.85990254645322
Mahzel				1242.7995	rd: 138.55101640766338
Richardb				1242.2678	rd: 148.14845818520615
Radi				1242.2665	rd: 79.42626732777057
JAP				1241.8554	rd: 149.05190329965941
Fab-007				1241.5417	rd: 148.49253864887507
Nybba				1241.2789	rd: 185.1843649112611
Antoine71260				1240.2649	rd: 172.2624819752877
Guilherme.ranna				1237.2406	rd: 174.58834882694651
Pato Caro				1237.1315	rd: 75.46332264264433
HandsFree				1236.8391	rd: 141.9646651079441
FXB				1234.5995	rd: 111.02649895440182
Arnaud				1233.0177	rd: 148.39163046797154
Aleksandras				1232.5297	rd: 95.9945972637341
TKoziczkowski				1231.9079	rd: 84.38025503342337
GabrielMHOZ				1231.8619	rd: 187.89518949835985
Frits Schneider				1231.6741	rd: 175.51103281064212
Cero				1231.3929	rd: 79.58160193714507
Cjkaiser1				1231.2317	rd: 113.5163985948187
Nicola (NBE)				1230.9610	rd: 105.14182268217675
MRH - Arnaud				1230.1006	rd: 128.63851339030464
Richard Maisonpierre #5192				1227.8718	rd: 165.20872493648636
AliE131				1227.7598	rd: 141.54007872554376
Hugomiguelmm81				1226.6917	rd: 133.6227035458703
Canastel9g				1223.0316	rd: 162.538981475879
LibelleGeoff				1222.1235	rd: 152.38508873662124
Jcmasche				1219.6953	rd: 84.09609189820395
Christeagle				1219.3343	rd: 148.14936434886167
Pablog				1218.2452	rd: 137.04446139705223
Harasky				1217.7776	rd: 79.42630608731064
Maversa70@gmail.com				1216.1312	rd: 81.39803340534452
CA1976				1215.4326	rd: 162.57418231999753
Dvh33				1215.1315	rd: 127.29776767803226
Iffen5				1214.2175	rd: 182.2490467620695
Cookie				1214.1310	rd: 93.36137250804175
Esteban Pettenazza				1213.8483	rd: 69.58278019754815
Daf29				1213.4193	rd: 99.50751712375937
EC-CHC				1213.2401	rd: 87.21480438683162
6266				1211.7485	rd: 114.93053321923686
Rodolfo				1211.5132	rd: 93.85103447443531
Madcat				1211.4529	rd: 152.97767024821206
Me100jan				1211.3036	rd: 148.7918167828768
Crash				1209.9819	rd: 232.19837292270395
Tanodos				1209.5907	rd: 75.41962152722658
Gaustein				1208.9170	rd: 91.95976695644697
Hquint				1208.2410	rd: 179.50421862668702
Kusti Alasalmi				1207.2159	rd: 239.55403593966759
Renaud				1206.7832	rd: 109.6766474228357
Sotaventix				1206.7524	rd: 137.45431432712942
CW				1206.2134	rd: 139.97722848903885
FDI				1205.7332	rd: 144.4471199734112
Vnks				1205.1377	rd: 113.51685815610195
Micastany				1204.6429	rd: 83.66298250908652
Rimaroc88 - VET				1204.0201	rd: 152.97799886334823
Andrew Teclaw				1202.6047	rd: 96.87382780236439
Stasys				1201.8118	rd: 95.9947762518705
Pascual Conejero Cantos				1201.4396	rd: 164.9488040650704
Andrea AG				1198.2261	rd: 147.08542620244262
Jffuchs				1197.6647	rd: 105.14250654573844
HarberDJH				1196.2233	rd: 117.10016114624035
JAOlsen				1195.6617	rd: 138.55274926326967
Santi.Monti				1195.5430	rd: 84.09650202992596
Ramiro rico				1195.0467	rd: 215.90757544563473
JanisTeteris				1193.2888	rd: 79.42634836428743
GonzaRevellado				1192.4745	rd: 122.53550422630028
Mkauzlar				1192.2771	rd: 147.08569281481448
Adam Jarecki				1191.0852	rd: 95.05924130401833
B. Fries				1190.8842	rd: 142.67689972778652
S.Wlodek				1190.6393	rd: 158.3414923315349
DanyD (L72)				1189.1545	rd: 152.97868117704598
Jonathan_UV				1188.6087	rd: 72.87905228328536
Viloka				1187.1338	rd: 118.3959090282038
Jl.kowal				1186.3280	rd: 147.08596463390913
Djernis				1186.1353	rd: 175.5126402840888
Pierfax				1183.7164	rd: 93.26544702780197
Roby-69				1183.0551	rd: 92.7091629605377
Pete.Farrimond				1181.9036	rd: 169.6324500637547
Peter Robson				1180.0200	rd: 141.5409964698429
J McConathy				1180.0189	rd: 175.1530047192239
Gballou				1179.0438	rd: 113.51736029104877
Turtle				1178.6278	rd: 163.04061511057805
John Duke				1176.4916	rd: 146.35581107868316
Yautay				1175.8407	rd: 183.9607967711212
Dcarrattini				1175.5238	rd: 109.34803029105048
Riviere				1174.2889	rd: 152.97939693833595
Tatonext				1174.2216	rd: 161.41497090521923
Japo32				1174.1615	rd: 161.87242086954885
Philthehorn				1173.9238	rd: 97.1445616559559
Eroland				1173.5227	rd: 138.5536635767005
Alberto Boria				1172.4129	rd: 95.12740326637358
Alexrazor				1171.0939	rd: 95.99497469075534
Toivo Wiikari TW				1169.8042	rd: 123.93578237089919
JHO				1169.2086	rd: 106.50216764374997
Brito				1168.8542	rd: 128.12871130316918
Jtl				1168.8000	rd: 79.42639415932311
Gervazio Rodrigues				1166.6114	rd: 156.30619552226995
Janus101				1165.9784	rd: 154.29112884979133
Andrewkon				1165.3387	rd: 160.19500212766195
Egidiobabbi				1164.3684	rd: 105.14327015764557
NT				1163.6662	rd: 111.0283319580359
Dane60				1162.9307	rd: 148.15192157076697
Sylle				1161.7684	rd: 156.62622985329432
Tango-1				1161.4346	rd: 104.83871512855181
DNI				1161.4002	rd: 144.56943449357442
PROUTBIRD J66				1161.3204	rd: 148.9998163859952
TimNL				1160.9524	rd: 157.28745141765614
Blackfarmer				1160.8696	rd: 179.50607758049225
Skarlezib				1160.3780	rd: 134.27487144726987
Martinck				1160.1255	rd: 211.46248433291802
DavidHBS				1157.4712	rd: 152.38617590198274
Dpalgan				1155.0245	rd: 176.96789541497003
ErXino				1153.4552	rd: 74.05054542852433
SoarSail				1152.9498	rd: 113.51790500647832
Walter Pat				1152.7895	rd: 154.2917722315023
Guy.P				1151.0730	rd: 132.91589326634136
Feil				1150.8913	rd: 147.00559844606187
Marcelo Lopez				1149.9301	rd: 101.70902552314605
Mauheb				1149.4142	rd: 111.0287524140913
Chris G				1147.6613	rd: 117.10046203401403
Nuutti97				1146.5148	rd: 144.98011913554524
Kerenyid				1144.8663	rd: 158.74953600291568
Mariechristian				1144.3155	rd: 97.91224526593199
Kikevillar				1140.6995	rd: 121.2435275179458
Lennox89				1140.4480	rd: 144.9887765100622
TomC				1138.9798	rd: 177.77791796516374
Jicub				1138.4971	rd: 152.6848454665728
JAZ				1138.1227	rd: 64.31212163881246
Michel Valade				1137.2313	rd: 137.84618084002247
Cumulus_prime				1136.9754	rd: 147.13524701105746
Jm.fallet				1136.3824	rd: 187.98485924956137
Paynterf				1135.3315	rd: 145.85734766281925
Flavio.a319				1135.0748	rd: 174.58952517319514
Delicarepi				1134.9366	rd: 213.0816400561547
Jhelizon				1134.4361	rd: 89.14034623599854
Miguel jurado MA				1134.3817	rd: 128.1295289868524
Kessa				1133.4999	rd: 104.34475126902767
Tom Eagles CV2				1132.6805	rd: 143.30814044890604
BUS				1132.5971	rd: 152.28793622767097
AnneS396				1132.2802	rd: 141.54206227260988
Nuckel				1132.0465	rd: 138.91388639235768
Ste				1131.0721	rd: 105.14411352976852
Tom1701				1129.6922	rd: 152.98174493416334
Sailplane62				1128.2361	rd: 139.9808288461163
Rellekyhtac				1127.8883	rd: 85.08766568470475
Wrink-E-Dink				1126.8559	rd: 113.51849230891423
Tomas Butkevicius				1126.1096	rd: 86.37333675865368
Kawaz				1125.3471	rd: 86.68774389375665
Giuliodp				1124.0058	rd: 95.22769897977031
SC69				1123.2472	rd: 71.80182219473102
Piotr Jaszczuk				1122.3586	rd: 154.293351828687
Gray_Bear				1122.1879	rd: 139.9811433804026
DS_GLIDE				1121.2977	rd: 126.27982379831927
Danpal				1119.8299	rd: 95.80780370707416
Matias Aguero				1118.3298	rd: 104.83881868127912
Cldsoar				1117.7780	rd: 103.91385018945142
Dschinn				1117.1821	rd: 148.15433892809392
Clovis				1116.3204	rd: 132.04595425338658
Nickonanova				1116.1398	rd: 139.98146299445395
BrodA				1115.6239	rd: 147.08959394242524
Bulius02				1115.0871	rd: 89.62960567180968
Marci0522				1113.8611	rd: 102.9049655808805
MRegelink				1113.8475	rd: 104.61989674658415
Egon Jorgensen				1113.4681	rd: 121.52547710771763
Vranki				1112.2953	rd: 156.10931971920337
L OVNI				1111.8671	rd: 164.95316263967698
Jazz_82				1111.8048	rd: 79.42651436785975
S en ciel				1111.7913	rd: 157.28985725211854
BC1				1110.9724	rd: 81.53369322324775
Jancsi93				1110.0916	rd: 139.98178768846154
Enzo59				1110.0255	rd: 96.17370050479948
Reno Ramos				1109.6703	rd: 134.2757374097767
Tamas Pentz				1108.2549	rd: 176.9699903277532
Gubbola				1107.5716	rd: 182.25338595149188
Martin H				1106.6938	rd: 97.14516983113485
Esteban Pastoriza				1104.7872	rd: 109.3496006757414
John aggerhlm				1102.1064	rd: 151.73335047780287
Diegonatalini				1100.9388	rd: 84.09843499182814
PaulSlutes				1100.7619	rd: 113.5191222053906
Ffresnedarivas				1099.9092	rd: 128.130427647152
Matirra				1098.4681	rd: 113.87853100392964
Pottoman				1097.7758	rd: 105.14503667950382
MK7				1097.1880	rd: 137.21378423680773
HeikoSoaris				1096.0919	rd: 184.76017638541413
Blue				1094.8448	rd: 152.9837892080748
Spa06				1094.4681	rd: 158.34553251393473
SkyP1G				1093.5916	rd: 89.72955039418116
Danlam				1090.4774	rd: 84.09868068736405
Alemleonardo				1088.6638	rd: 101.71003922508636
HPO				1087.4548	rd: 138.55782824700015
Bicker				1087.2421	rd: 139.91814419198604
01MG				1087.0423	rd: 105.36498445307603
Christian49				1084.8645	rd: 166.99878989643733
JVSAIL13				1084.5404	rd: 141.54327617737678
Pope				1083.4707	rd: 198.04438850868368
Eloy				1081.2083	rd: 109.35019279775176
Tincho				1080.0160	rd: 84.0989327466411
Audifanatic				1079.7426	rd: 147.09171722198326
TJR				1076.8620	rd: 97.14547614012506
JeffDorwartCGR				1076.8243	rd: 97.90073275418005
Antani				1075.0282	rd: 94.66149000719452
Znizk74				1074.9947	rd: 126.11770065524384
Riquart				1074.3090	rd: 109.67816282501984
Oliveman73				1074.0220	rd: 135.36266583000318
BertIsEvil				1072.4071	rd: 147.64204907943764
LeMontois				1071.9973	rd: 103.83357658228866
Petrisucksdorff				1071.5917	rd: 139.9839736546265
Mati_AR				1069.5547	rd: 84.09919117013287
Spira				1068.9739	rd: 137.21489118752015
Patrice				1067.0655	rd: 144.30625199767792
John Marchant				1067.0652	rd: 148.15734006078097
Tomas TS				1065.5438	rd: 85.46742487876031
Ipaga123				1064.7658	rd: 105.36553728027374
Nani				1062.7482	rd: 101.71051716740689
Peregrine				1061.4869	rd: 95.99584134013487
Cowboydesetoiles				1060.9401	rd: 154.29694426032174
Orville				1060.4382	rd: 153.45518594789868
Jesperras				1059.4337	rd: 168.30903426643843
Apo				1059.2898	rd: 147.09889401717166
D@vid				1058.4717	rd: 104.62160392530264
Wingbolt				1058.0420	rd: 118.44867241419446
Mat van Dillen				1057.6809	rd: 152.98617202275545
Jadedani99				1057.6386	rd: 126.28191826737383
P.Landqvist				1054.2487	rd: 182.2560677364912
Hahnitsch				1052.6756	rd: 175.78949801343654
Pepe				1052.6216	rd: 126.11857382558897
M.Neumann				1052.4946	rd: 138.55979719651427
Xpecttrum				1051.7205	rd: 133.62594643955987
Paul scheen				1049.6299	rd: 148.532571393748
ROGaletto				1048.6319	rd: 84.09972711171491
Ailetrain				1044.6877	rd: 164.95717842979255
Charly H				1044.2088	rd: 148.15883132121377
Faber				1043.4018	rd: 147.0940609039201
Jeseve				1043.1883	rd: 104.62211536400245
PIK50				1042.6353	rd: 161.25268105924266
Dtruffo				1042.1006	rd: 105.14675856721402
RedCat				1042.0409	rd: 152.77278294343014
Nico15				1041.9457	rd: 83.66366456140103
Ttomvlcek				1039.0784	rd: 146.51937190791512
Rigaudie julien				1035.9161	rd: 148.65335162756082
MR-DALY				1035.3825	rd: 152.98770213171974
F.Diaz				1033.4767	rd: 115.54453013218435
Raymond NEU				1032.5787	rd: 139.9863987845348
Matas Motuza				1030.7691	rd: 95.99612868421215
Napsterone				1027.9049	rd: 104.62264422588916
Patriq ZQD				1026.5306	rd: 139.98679368412425
PoisChiche				1025.8204	rd: 213.08606671847045
Louis Lessire				1025.4982	rd: 102.14038822306077
Igor macera				1025.4525	rd: 105.14731679496965
Andy Corlier				1025.4354	rd: 110.22416538127214
J.Albert				1024.3827	rd: 89.46047260065298
Mauser				1023.3591	rd: 161.87677024223012
Splitenz				1022.4800	rd: 113.52126753706101
Damian Beccar				1021.5079	rd: 86.43870096367336
JFair				1019.0075	rd: 152.8837209404042
UK-MW19				1016.7129	rd: 173.7751695776543
Gillot				1011.9482	rd: 136.07579752439526
FrancoAF9				1009.9348	rd: 101.90401993322415
BXT				1009.5515	rd: 132.32449758551778
Pietro Bruni				1008.8044	rd: 105.14789498236635
Charlou				1005.4530	rd: 146.136164848791
L.Brune				1004.9407	rd: 144.1461165046535
Rimk				1004.0048	rd: 133.62710401456457
Bijave85up				1003.6292	rd: 157.17375982654468
Mladen Jurkovic				1001.9375	rd: 142.31717431613885
Homa				1001.6601	rd: 147.94024131734008
Joseph				994.9371	rd: 147.53995647975023
Markflys				994.5842	rd: 101.19133825122977
Schorschi				991.0253	rd: 147.13836776372452
Marek Kossa KOS				989.9803	rd: 175.79239847922787
JaVAl				989.8226	rd: 139.98929949808783
Supernova				989.3987	rd: 147.8115369467728
Erling Mikkelsen				985.0370	rd: 159.11649230410927
Fedev79				984.3931	rd: 73.36769647354815
Gheppio				983.7745	rd: 139.9897303369699
Charles RB6				980.3177	rd: 86.93081315414136
UTN168				977.7263	rd: 139.9901662607275
Simo.80				975.5081	rd: 105.14911124719875
Nesnard UP				973.7177	rd: 139.64650870696133
Hans-Peter				973.0545	rd: 154.3041305466669
Mickey				967.5105	rd: 137.63204873736544
Facundoserra				967.3849	rd: 88.25707336765251
Mazi				965.6300	rd: 139.9910533639091
Toby				963.2430	rd: 82.79450279218044
RTM				962.0193	rd: 128.1348324569658
Brian Skov Pedersen				953.8248454	rd: 179.47638550811848
V8Power				951.3349	rd: 139.99212794414535
Pwa				950.9038	rd: 138.9228015307113
Jbeckley2000				943.0981	rd: 125.89421054906954
G.Forest				940.9065	rd: 138.567154117365
Machtu				939.6144	rd: 146.17219665650055
Fmsky				928.8539	rd: 147.14001490393744
Tmanousis				925.7743	rd: 136.56638950465364
Erwin Rogge ER1				916.7041	rd: 213.09164618781352
Wuilolive				890.8874	rd: 86.11516014663772
Jean-louis Cornez				886.9536	rd: 88.41053643390242
Minimax				859.3251	rd: 138.75289454112513
Quant				836.0634	rd: 113.10009890895653
HarryHN1				816.6497	rd: 84.33792378225967
Carluciano				757.6017	rd: 87.88293571503179
Valcaselato (#16)				720.7755	rd: 87.54165772657112
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witor
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by witor » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:58 pm

The size of a competition or number of competitors doesn't really matter. Gliko2 system which is designed for 1v 1 games could be adapted in a following way: if there was 3 people in a rated race we can treat final results as a set of 1 v1 matches 1 won with 2, 1 won with 3, 2 lost with 1, 2 won with 3, 3 lost with 1 and 3 lost with 2. There might already be Glicko 2 adapted for multiplayer competitions. I hate FAI rating system. It is just not as good as statistical systems (like glicko) based on solid mathematics developed by mathematicians. with doctorates and publications in their field.

There are two most important aspects of the rating system we need.

1) Only competition against other pilots should affect the rating
2) ALL flights in a rated race must count.

So if there is a competition all races might not count towards the final competition standings, but all must be counted in the rating system. You should not be allowed to cancel the race just because you did badly. In chess if you play a bad game you can't say 'sorry let's not count that one...'There must be a way to stop people avoiding losing rating points if they done badly. For example if someone is just about to land out and disconnects and then does not sent ftr file he/she should still be counted in the rating calculations and should loose rating points. Simply put if you connect to a server with a rated race, your rating will be affected no matter if you win. lose or disconnect.

On CC competition managers should have an option to set competition as rated or unrated. If you fly in rated competition all your races (every time you connected to a server) should count in the rating calculations. There are many competitions over the year and I believe there should be sufficient data for rating system like this to work. Competition is the only way to penalize missing ftr files, unless there is another way to put out a server which will sent a log to CC with all results and disconnection logs to be included in rating calculations.

This rating systems work everywhere especially in chess (for example on Lichess website). I don't see we making it to work in condor should be impossible.

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BOD1
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by BOD1 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:40 pm

witor wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:58 pm
The size of a competition or number of competitors doesn't really matter. Gliko2 system which is designed for 1v 1 games could be adapted in a following way: if there was 3 people in a rated race we can treat final results as a set of 1 v1 matches 1 won with 2, 1 won with 3, 2 lost with 1, 2 won with 3, 3 lost with 1 and 3 lost with 2. There might already be Glicko 2 adapted for multiplayer competitions.
Yes, it's already done (see my post above, you are #2 :) ), a race is converted to a set of matches: p1 won p2, p1 won p3, p2 won p3 (the match is counted a single time, so there is not p3 lost p1 for example).
witor wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:58 pm
1) Only competition against other pilots should affect the rating
Agreed, so no team. And no single task (out of any competition) because the rating period is not fixed (see just after).
witor wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:58 pm
2) ALL flights in a rated race must count.
Disagreed :) Glickman said: "The Glicko system works best when the number of games in a rating period is moderate, say an average of 5-10 games per player in a rating period. [...] Game outcomes would be observed, and then updated ratings and RD’s would be computed at the end of the rating period". Otherwise Rating Deviation would increase too much and the volatility could explode the rating if some players have an unusual bad day.
So I think the final competition ranking is perfect for this.
And we must keep in mind Condor is a virtual sport, we can't be as engaged as in a real - physical - competition (who, with social life ;), could be certain to be at the start line for the next 10 or 20 Saturday evening?) , this is why organisers may choose to keep only the N best races, which is also fair to the players who have done all the races.
witor wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:58 pm
For example if someone is just about to land out and disconnects and then does not sent ftr file he/she should still be counted in the rating calculations
That's already the case on CC. DSHelper sends server results to CC and a cross-check is done with the results I got. If I see a FTR is missing, the competitor has a score of 0 pt.
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witor
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by witor » Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:18 am

I still think that all races should count. Sometimes very good pilots take part in a competition and fly just couple of races. ( as you said people can not always fly - just life) As a result they end up on a distant place in a competition despite being better than most of the competitors. As a result they would end up with an untrue low rating which does not reflect they skill level, weaker pilots would gain rating they do not deserve and rating system is useless again...

I strongly advocate every rated flight to count. it should be based on individual races not whole competitions like everywhere else. For example in chess rating is adjusted after each game not at the end of the tournament. There are thousands of chess games played everyday on Lichess and rating system works just fine. People sometimes play 100 or more bullet games in a day. If for some reason it doesn't work for condor after trial then maybe some improvement could be made.

I am not sure if we will have too many races in a rating period. If this is a problem for glicko2 maybe another system would be more suitable like glicko1 or others that I have not heard of but are out there (have no idea what starcraft 2 uses for example)

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by 6266 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:15 am

1. I agree with witor that all races should count. F.x a competiton with 2 tasks, only the best telling

Pilot A: 500 / 500
Pilot B: 800 / 100
Pilot C: 800 / DNS

Competitions result

Pilot B: 800
Pilot C: 800
Pilot A: 500

Is B really equal to C? Is B better than A?


2. I see one problem in the whole rating: Disconnectet flights because of a crashed PC, it's outside of the influence of the Pilot, but he will be punished for that. If you find a solution for that, it's easy to crash the PC on purpose in a bad flight
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arneh
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by arneh » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:24 am

I think there also needs to be some way to bias results towards more recent results. Because pilots' skills change. So if someone new comes in and gets mediocre results at first, but later improves and starts dominating, then those old mediocre results shouldn't drag his total down, when he currently is the dominant pilot. The ranking should be the currently best pilots, not the entire history of condor-club (which would also be very static and rarely change, and hence not very interesting to follow).

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Bre901
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by Bre901 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:33 am

arneh wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:24 am
I think there also needs to be some way to bias results towards more recent results. Because pilots' skills change. So if someone new comes in and gets mediocre results at first, but later improves and starts dominating, then those old mediocre results shouldn't drag his total down, when he currently is the dominant pilot. The ranking should be the currently best pilots, not the entire history of condor-club (which would also be very static and rarely change, and hence not very interesting to follow).
100% agree with that, I had noticed that many top pilots in the ranking table posted by BOD1 are total unknowns, never seen online or in recent competitions (I only started flying online and taking part in some competitions in 2018, when C2 arrived)

As far as I can remember, in most soaring ranking systems, the competitions have a different weighing factors according to level (WGC, EGC, national, regional), which is not easy to achieve here, and also to age (more recent results have a higher factor)
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witor
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by witor » Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:55 am

Let's not get distracted by real FAI ranking system, weightings, different competition factors and rubbish like this which makes people who fly more stand higher in the ranking list which does not necessary reflect the true skill of the pilots. I was never a fan of FAI ranking list, but that's a different story...

I just want to stress the most important reason why every race should count towards rating not just final competition standings. In CWC2021 we had more than 460 people registered. About 60 had the required 17 flights and very few actually flew all races which is usually the rule not the exception. Every missed flight can potentially negatively affect the final result of a pilot and would make rating untrue and not related to the actual skill of the pilot. To give you an extreme example Quinten Hermans (REA) finished in 263rd place. Do you really think we had 262 pilots better than REA in that competition? I don't think so...
arneh wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:24 am
I think there also needs to be some way to bias results towards more recent results.
Inactivity is taken into account in Glico2 rating system. If you don't fly your rating becomes unreliable and next time you lose a race your rating changes by a lot. If you are active your single win or loss does not change your rating by much.

I must say I am presently surprised by BOD1's response to my initial post. To be honest I though I will be ignored. I am so happy to see that there is a will to implement something that I was thinking about long time ago and I am optimistic that it will happen one day making CC even more awesome.

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