Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

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6266
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by 6266 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:51 pm

If my results are so important, then you can keep it intern, but not visible.

Thanks
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by BOD1 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:03 pm

Perfect!
Please let me few days to apply changes
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by 6266 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:25 pm

Thanks, no stress. Have a nice weekend
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by BOD1 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:43 pm

Done!
(and CN added too)
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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by wickid » Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:52 pm

BOD1 wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:43 pm
(and CN added too)
Excellent! Much better :D
PH-1504, KOE

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by witor » Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:12 pm

Congratulations on getting it done!

if you had some spare time at some point it might be useful if you could publish how (all the math behind it) the rating is calculated. This would make it more transparent and could satisfy curiosity of some pilots who wander how the whole thing works

When I proposed rating system I must admit I did not consider some ethical issues that this change might bring. I didn't think that some people might be objected to it. I don't know how big of a problem this is but if someone requests that his name does not appear on the list instead of completely removing it maybe you could replace the name with something like 'Anonymous'

I really hope that you will not have more people asking to be anonymous as this would destroy the whole point of having the rating.

In general I wonder what people think about this new feature. Did you get any feedback yet?

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by EDB » Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:50 pm

If you take a rating system from iRacing, you should take a look at all their rules. You can not just take one aspect of the rating system.

At iRacing there are competitions that are rated and competitions that are not rated. When they upgrade every 4 times a year, or If a competition doesn't have enough participants, the event is also not rated. On CC there are almost always too many fake accounts in a competition that are only there for cheating.

I also have competitions were we are only talking on TS or just testing out new hardware or whatever, were I/we just fly as tourist. I think organizers should be free to decide if their competition is rated or not. Then participants also know in advance that they are rated or not. So they can decide to not fly that competition if they don't want to be rated.

And there is an other important thing on iRacing... Safety Rating and Licenses. If you crash too often, you get demoted. And then you can not drive (fly) the important competitions. And in gliding, crashes are more... well... uhhh... deadly...

iRacing Sporting Code Dated 2021-08-30

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by Snapcase » Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:11 pm

wickid wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:52 pm
BOD1 wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:43 pm
(and CN added too)
Excellent! Much better :D

@BOD1

How about a national flag?

In overall results tab of the competition there is a flag in front of CN - maybe we could to the same in ranking list?

:idea:
Wojciech Sołtysik - SOL - Poland

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by witor » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:56 am

[/quote]
EDB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:50 pm
And there is an other important thing on iRacing... Safety Rating and Licenses. If you crash too often, you get demoted. And then you can not drive (fly) the important competitions. And in gliding, crashes are more... well... uhhh... deadly...
Crashing in car race where 20 cars try to make first corner affects final race results way more that relatively rare collisions in condor and with q being used effect of collisions on final results are negligible, so safety rating and 'licences' make absolutely no sense in condor and collisions will also have very small effect on the ratings and how rating system works.
EDB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:50 pm
I also have competitions were we are only talking on TS or just testing out new hardware or whatever, were I/we just fly as tourist. I think organizers should be free to decide if their competition is rated or not. Then participants also know in advance that they are rated or not. So they can decide to not fly that competition if they don't want to be rated.
If you want to test something don't fly in a competition, just put a server up get your friends to fly with you and have fun without being rated. You can also join many of the servers which are running every day and which are not part of any CC competition and will not be rated.

I do Agree that option to have unrated or rated competition is worth considering, but I am just afraid that for some reason people will stop flying rated competitions and we will have even less people involved and that's definitely not what anybody wants. I think we can agree that the more people fly the better and more exiting competition is. I think (just my opinion) that all competitions should be rated (as long as there is no way to avoid losing by disconnecting and not uploading FTR) and there is more than enough servers every day for people to fly for fun and mess about.
EDB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:50 pm
On CC there are almost always too many fake accounts in a competition that are only there for cheating.
That is interesting and totally new for me... What fake accounts and cheaters are we talking about? Do you have something to support your claim that I could have a look at?

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by wickid » Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:04 am

witor wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:56 am
EDB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:50 pm
And there is an other important thing on iRacing... Safety Rating and Licenses. If you crash too often, you get demoted. And then you can not drive (fly) the important competitions. And in gliding, crashes are more... well... uhhh... deadly...
Crashing in car race where 20 cars try to make first corner affects final race results way more that relatively rare collisions in condor and with q being used effect of collisions on final results are negligible, so safety rating and 'licences' make absolutely no sense in condor and collisions will also have very small effect on the ratings and how rating system works.
It is more people crashing by fluttering over the start line, or not landing out safely. That should affect the rating (or at least be penalized more harshly). At the moment most competitions score a crash with 0 point or even give distance points! I agree with you on the midair collision. It should be recoverable with Q without penalty. We are dealing with limited visibility in the sim, plus not everybody has fair intentions all the time...
witor wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:56 am
EDB wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:50 pm
On CC there are almost always too many fake accounts in a competition that are only there for cheating.
That is interesting and totally new for me... What fake accounts and cheaters are we talking about? Do you have something to support your claim that I could have a look at?
On big competitions there are several accounts that receive the briefing in the first timeslot (and have the password if it is password protected). They then quickly log on to the server and log out again when the first timeslot goes online so they have the task and the weather. They never fly and have 0 points at the end of the competition.

The people behind these accounts can then fly and try the task, or at least the first leg. They then fly the task for the points on their actual account in a later timeslot. There are people that just fly in a perfect straight line to a thermal that is not marked with a cloud yet and stuff like that.
PH-1504, KOE

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by EDB » Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:52 pm

witor wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:56 am

I do Agree that option to have unrated or rated competition is worth considering, but I am just afraid that for some reason people will stop flying rated competitions and we will have even less people involved and that's definitely not what anybody wants.


8)

...do I need to say more..?

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by EDB » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:28 pm

witor wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:56 am
Crashing in car race where 20 cars try to make first corner affects final race results way more that relatively rare collisions in condor and with q being used effect of collisions on final results are negligible, so safety rating and 'licences' make absolutely no sense in condor and collisions will also have very small effect on the ratings and how rating system works.
So you take a racing rating system where, as you say, crashing happens a lot without much risk (and when the mecanics are good you may even drive again the same day) and use that in a sport where crashing is much more deadly and has much more impact on the competition. If you crash on a real life glider competition you most of the time can't continu, because you don't have an airworthy glider anymore.

Midairs are difficult in Condor. The FoV is too limited compared to real life for most. And even with Q and no penalty points you are punished hard enough in the race already. I'm talking about crashes because pilots are pushing too hard, taking too many risk, because people feel themselves safe behind their monitors. And if they crash, they can risk the same the next days. Promoted by the 'not all tasks count system'. This happened in racing games a lot also. Max risk. They banned this do or die behavior in iRacing by banning those do or die drivers with the safety rating.

Those do or die pilots negatively influance the competitions and the rating system. You need a system like in iRacing that bans those pilots from the rated competitions. Like in iRacing. Only if they have proven they can fly without taking too much risk, they may try again.

If you don't do this, rating is flawed. Promoting risks even more. Creating pilots that are unsafe to fly in real life...

Hurting the way real pilots think about Condor.

One extra tip. Start from zero in 2022. It looks a bit strange that pilots that stopped flying Condor back in 2012 are still improving.

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by witor » Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:23 pm

wickid wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:04 am
On big competitions there are several accounts that receive the briefing in the first timeslot (and have the password if it is password protected). They then quickly log on to the server and log out again when the first timeslot goes online so they have the task and the weather. They never fly and have 0 points at the end of the competition.

The people behind these accounts can then fly and try the task, or at least the first leg. They then fly the task for the points on their actual account in a later timeslot. There are people that just fly in a perfect straight line to a thermal that is not marked with a cloud yet and stuff like that.
I can’t believe that some people have no life and are prepared to waste time and do things like this. Anyway, I think that this is so rare that it should not affect much in the grand scheme of things.
wickid wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:04 am
It is more people crashing by fluttering over the start line, or not landing out safely. That should affect the rating (or at least be penalized more harshly). At the moment most competitions score a crash with 0 point or even give distance points!
It will be penalized more harshly than before. Before rating If only 15 out of 20 tasks counted for final standings people risked a lot because if they crashed it didn’t matter because they still had enough flights to be high in the competition. With rating every race counts towards it. If you crash or get 0 points you effectively lose with everyone and your rating will suffer a lot. This should be discouraging and people should be more careful if they got a bit of common sense, and I believe that is exactly what you want.
EDB wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:28 pm
So you take a racing rating system where, as you say, crashing happens a lot without much risk (and when the mecanics are good you may even drive again the same day) and use that in a sport where crashing is much more deadly and has much more impact on the competition. If you crash on a real life glider competition you most of the time can't continu, because you don't have an airworthy glider anymore.
Let’s not forget that condor is a video game and nobody dies when they crash. We are not rating real glider pilots; we are rating people’s skill in playing the game. Anyway, crash in condor will have more severe consequences compared to crash in Iracing, which again I believe is exactly what you want. If you crash in condor it is game over you lose with everyone and lose a lot of rating points. In I racing you might still be able to repair your car in a pit stop and win the race.
EDB wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:52 pm
...do I need to say more..?
Well, there might be fewer people flying rated competitions if they have a choice. If all competitions are rated people who fly now will keep flying and I don’t think there will be significant change in number of participants. To be honest I don’t quite understand why some people don’t mind being listed in first or 50th position in the competition results, but suddenly have a problem with being listed in first or 50th position on a rating list…
In general I just think that there are way more benefits to a proper skill based rating system than issues caused by it. As a new pilot wouldn’t it be nice to see that you came 3rd in a competition with field strength way above your rating? Wouldn’t it be nice to see that the hard work you put in in learning the game actually makes you measurably better by your rating improving? Wouldn’t it be nice to see what is the competition field strength and be proud if you won in a strong competition?

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by witor » Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:29 pm

EDB wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:28 pm
One extra tip. Start from zero in 2022. It looks a bit strange that pilots that stopped flying Condor back in 2012 are still improving.
I thought that that's what would happen, but BOD1 decided to use historical data and to be honest after thinking about it I don't see the issue with that. People who stopped in 2012 are not improving... It is just that new people might be not as good, lose rating points and allow old guys be higher rated. I guess having a last rating date is useful in that respect.

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Re: Pilot ranking list - could we have something meaningful?

Post by Bre901 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:22 pm

Maybe taking into account only C2 competitions would be a good trade-off between starting next year and rating people who haven't been flying for almost a decade ...
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