CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

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Jarmo K
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CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by Jarmo K » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:42 am

Tried to search (quickly), but didn't find explanation why sometimes winner does not get 1000p.
For example yesterday's AAT, before including all outlanded pilots, MYR had 1000p and me abour 980p. Now he has "only" 923p, which is almost 80p less and can make quite difference in final results.

There are tasks in CWC where distance is less, used time is less, speed is faster and still winner gets 1000p. Has it something to do with amount of outlanded pilots?

And yes, I would prefer having +980p instead of 910p :lol:

wbr,
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wickid
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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by wickid » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:17 am

I think it has to do with F (the day factor) in the formula. This is the completion ratio. It is calculated as follows:

F = 1.25* (number of finishers/number of pilots who had a launch)

If this is less then 1 the total score is multiplied by this factor. For yesterdays race:

(1.25*(88/153) = 0.8

So your winner can never have 1000 points if many people land out or crash. The scoring formula is pretty complicated. The reason the scoring changes with the final results is that many people who crash don't upload skewing the day factor above 1 in the live scoring. Only after all servers have sent the files to condor club the crashes get taken into account dropping the day factor below 1 in this case.
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timbaeyens
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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by timbaeyens » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:45 am

A day factor is a bit strange as a concept in a competition where not all days count ...

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wickid
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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by wickid » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:50 am

timbaeyens wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:45 am
A day factor is a bit strange as a concept in a competition where not all days count ...
I don't make the rules. I also think it is silly when you do well on a difficult day you don't get the reward for it. And if you follow the formula as FAI describes it, many days of the CWC would qualify for 1000 points anyway due to the minimum distance rules.
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TimKuijpers
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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by TimKuijpers » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:50 pm

timbaeyens wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:45 am
A day factor is a bit strange as a concept in a competition where not all days count ...
Couldnt agree more. If you are comparing days to another by only counting the 17 best results you cannot have a daywin (yesterday) gain as much points as place 20 on another...

It gets even more weird: outlandings are only counted when people upload their file. But because of frustration/reputation protection people hardly ever do. (Also because it probably won't count for the 17 best) When you crash however you are counted as an outlanding without uploading(!) and therefor reduce the dayfactor. So depending on the amount of crashes the day becomes pretty much useless for the overal scoring.

Before, this had led to ~980p instead of 1000, but last day was even more extreme.. even though the weather/taak was more realistic than we have seen before in CWC.. just because others are crashing the winner won't get rewarded equally as other daywinners.

It is a feature on condor-club that organisers can choose to use or not. Before this finishers/non-finisher ratio wasnt included in the scoring. Because in reallife distance/outlanding days were too deciding in competitions they included this into the scoring. Now in reallife to compare scores they also included time and distance into the formula of calculating the winner's points. Just because a 1h task doesn't compare to a 3h task. In condor we don't use that either.. in order to compare maximum scores to one another, not the relative scores as in reallife.

The organisers of CWC could have chosen to score 1000p all the time, as far as I know it's Just a tick in the box on condor-club. There are many odd things when it comes to scoring of condor competitions which are inherently related to not counting all days. But this one particular one is self-inflicted and doesn't make any sense to me.

So convince me: Why should a day be devaluated when many people decide to crash?



(In fact, if your flight is going poorly and you cannot improve on your score the best thing to do now is crash.. you wont get any penalty and there's a higher chance to steel some of the winner's points. And you don't even have to upload your ftr!)
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Jarmo K
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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by Jarmo K » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:30 pm

+1 Tim
And in my opinion, when task is difficult and only few finish it, all finishers should be rewarded and not penalized... no matter, if crashers / outlanders have uploaded their ftr or not.

I remember my (good) old Condor1 learning days, when managed to finish task after sunset among some 20 other pilots (and +100 outlanded). How huge reward it felt to get 750p just by hard fighting & finishing, even being way over 40 min slower than the winner, when "normal" race day score was always some 600p.

(and as side note: according FAI scoring rules, there shouldn't be a single 1000p day so far... minimum flight duration ever exceeded)

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arneh
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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by arneh » Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:32 pm

I agree totally, there is no sense in devaluing the score, when not all results count.

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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by Jarmo K » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:49 am

No need to say anything...

Tim & other on top got penalized with 220p for being good in a very hard task... :roll:

Wondering what might winner get, if there's just 20 finishers out of 200 attendees...

In my opinion: either with fully according FAI rules or winner gets always 1000p (without penalty points).

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mada2000
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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by mada2000 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:43 pm

Gents, I'd like to say - There wasn't role changes during the competition. As you can see on the attachment - there is 1000p for all tasks at global seetings and the sceond screen is what you are able to set at single task - There is no scorring rules (except double points)
Unfortunately there is a huge BUG on Condor Club. After your nottification (after task no 20 AAT/S) I've sent request to Thierry Bodin for recalulation and info about the bug but unfortunately - no answer, no feedback from his side - nothing. Maybe you are able to perswade admin of cc portal to correct the bug. I'm am not able and to be honest very frustrated now so better is to finish this message to avoid some unpleasant words to CC admin.
Anyway
Thanks for participation and sorry for some troubles sometimes :-)
Diploma soon :-) - For now awaiting for Thierry's reply
Cheers
Adam-AGO
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witor
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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by witor » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:50 pm

Firstly congratulations to Tim for winning CWC the biggest condor competition and becoming new world champion. Secondly Huge thanks to Adam for putting all the effort to make this competition happen.

I do agree that this scoring system is rubbish. I new Adam (the CWC organiser) has checked the box for 1000p to always be awarded to the task winner, but for some reason it doesn't work. It either a condor club BUG or the formula needs to be changed to ensure that winners always get 1000p in competitions where not all racing days count.

Anyway I hope that this can be fixed for the future competitions otherwise I will advocate for competitions being organised elsewhere.

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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by BOD1 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:07 pm

mada2000 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:43 pm
Gents, I'd like to say - There wasn't role changes during the competition. As you can see on the attachment - there is 1000p for all tasks.
That option is not set on your competition.
mada2000 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:43 pm
Unfortunately there is a huge BUG on Condor Club. After your nottification (after task no 20 AAT/S) I've sent request to Thierry Bodin for recalulation and info about the bug but unfortunately - no answer, no feedback from his side - nothing.
What bug?
I replied you 3 hours after your mail and logs attest it has been delivered to your mail server.
Hi Adam,
That's the scoring rules!
Maximum nb of points = Min(1000, 1.25 * ((double) n1 / (double) N) * 1000)
where n1 = Number of competitors who achieve a Handicapped Distance (Dh) of at least Dm (100km in real life, only 1km on CC) = 113 pilots for this task
N = Number of competitors = 153 here

So 113/153*1000*1.25 = 923.2026... That's the Day factor., if you have more than 20% of pilots who didn't achieve the minimal distance (Dm), the 1000pts decrease.
If I followed the true rule with a Dm of 100km, only 100 pilots did them so max score would be 817pts.

There is an option in Competition editor to stick on 1000 pts, whatever n1.

Best regards,
Thierry
AGO wrote:Hi Thierry,
I have lots of request for recalculating task no 20 in CWC2021 as the system calculated the points in strange way. The first player received ca 930p instead of 1000p.
I appreciate if you check what happen. Is it an error in alghoritm?
https://www.condor.club/comp/showtask/208/?id=17600
Thierry
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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by BOD1 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:11 pm

I just checked the stick on 1000pts feature, the activation has been recorded without problem and the score has been calculated accordingly.
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mada2000
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Re: CWC2021 scoring on condorclub

Post by mada2000 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:53 pm

[/quote]
There is an option in Competition editor to stick on 1000 pts, whatever n1.
[/quote]

Thierry,
lets assume - I did not noticed your reply with my request for recalculation task no 20 as well. My fault. But anyway, It wasn't recalculated up till now. There are some bugs when the competiton is created. One of examples... After creatng the "main" page of competition saving and entering another one - Time to send briefing changes sometimes, send light briefing, time to send ftr, zones appears even not set previously. Maybe this parameter "Ignore day factor and always use 1000 points for first competitor" too. Unless I am not a novice in competition settings and always take care for all necessary parameters. Please notice that only few taks were calculated in wrong way - the rest was OK.
Anyway - thanks for your help.
Cheers
Adam

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