No lift in very strong thermals

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XelSirko
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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by XelSirko » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:49 am

EDB wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:32 am
@ XelSirko

One other thing I found strange in one or both (? Speaking from memory now) videos is that sometimes the electronic vario sound wasn"t changing pitch/volume when entering lift while the instruments where indicating changing lift positively. As if the video sound wasn't synced correctly sometimes... Did you change the vario settings?

I'm only able to look into these vertical hickups and hollow thermals in more detail in or after the weekend....
Didn't touch vario settings. Trying to touch as little things as possible being new to this :)

Take a look at the video @Rotareneg posted above when you get a chance, I think it illustrates problem better, with instruments being clearly visible.
Specifically between 0:30--0:50 seconds: lift suddenly disappears at 0:43 and suddenly re-appears at 0;47, note how both vario needles instantly jump from 0 to about 2.5 at 0:47, within one frame of the video.

BTW, Thanks for the link to the handbook earlier!

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Paul_UK
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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by Paul_UK » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:10 am

I tried one last test. I had the thought it may be something to do with the fact thermal helpers are on.

The oddity is still present with thermal helpers set to off however.
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maymar
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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by maymar » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:49 pm

EDB wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:57 pm
Paul_UK wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:40 pm
What is most bizarre is the jump / snatch the glider makes. It's like an on / off switch for the lift, totally binary. I've never experienced that before in Condor at all.

I can imagine that with very strong and very narrow thermals it feels a bit binary. From -10m/s to +10m/s in less then one second. I know one guy from my first club that went with his head through the canopy of his LS3 in the Alps because of sudden sink on circuit.

You hear the flexing and cracking of the air-frame. But it looks a bit weird in the video indeed... Is that with all the gliders or only with the Blanik?
I report it long time ago - look at this -> https://youtu.be/838gWWSZHiY?t=396
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=18629

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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by OXO » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:20 am

maymar wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:49 pm
EDB wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:57 pm
Paul_UK wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:40 pm
What is most bizarre is the jump / snatch the glider makes. It's like an on / off switch for the lift, totally binary. I've never experienced that before in Condor at all.

I can imagine that with very strong and very narrow thermals it feels a bit binary. From -10m/s to +10m/s in less then one second. I know one guy from my first club that went with his head through the canopy of his LS3 in the Alps because of sudden sink on circuit.

You hear the flexing and cracking of the air-frame. But it looks a bit weird in the video indeed... Is that with all the gliders or only with the Blanik?
I report it long time ago - look at this -> https://youtu.be/838gWWSZHiY?t=396
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=18629

In your example you are flying 160+ kmh into the edge of a strong/narrow thermal outside your circle. This bump is to be expected..

In the other examples above, understand that the yellow helpers are the micro cores which coalesce with height to form the thermal proper. In between those cores there could be stagnant or sinking air.
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EDB
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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by EDB » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:38 am

maymar needs to restructure or clean up his .obj file. Too many draw calls. And maybe turn down UV textures resolution.
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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by Paul_UK » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:53 pm

OXO wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:20 am

In your example you are flying 160+ kmh into the edge of a strong/narrow thermal outside your circle. This bump is to be expected..

In the other examples above, understand that the yellow helpers are the micro cores which coalesce with height to form the thermal proper. In between those cores there could be stagnant or sinking air.
Chris,

I was thinking along those lines however when I trickle across the thermal at what you'd consider an OK speed to climb with the lift builds as you fly through the micro cores but instead of it continuing to build as you approach the main core it's like a binary turn off of all lift, which is when the jolt happens. You then fly through the core sinking and once through the jolt happens again and you're in lift.

Prior to 7mins or so of flying however in doing what I did above you can climb away around the core right from the deck and there is a constant building of lift as you transition across the thermal. That particular thermal is generating too so it isn't that the core is becoming weaker. If I am picturing what you are saying correctly I can see how that could work, no lift until after where all the micro cores and main core meet. The bit that confuses me is why it isn't like that until after several mins of the thermal generating. I'm sure there is logic behind it, just feels off compared to my previous experiences in Condor.

This said I am yet to ever experience this during a race / flying with others which I have done a substantial amount of in Condor but I also try not to let myself get too low, it isn't the way to win races.
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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by OXO » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:46 pm

Thanks,

I shall have a chat with Uros about it when he's back from the beach.
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maymar
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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by maymar » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:01 pm

EDB wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:38 am
maymar needs to restructure or clean up his .obj file. Too many draw calls. And maybe turn down UV textures resolution.
EDB don't worry - it's fixed now ;-)

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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by EDB » Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:26 pm

👍
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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by EDB » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:11 pm

I watched the videos and tried to replicate it myself.
I can only replicate some (fast changes yes, but not as binary as in the videos) and only low to the ground (close to the ridges where there is also some ridge lift).

I'll try to look into it more...
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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by Paul_UK » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:16 am

When I flew the fpl provided the severity changed depending on the height you flew through.

I'm wondering what causes it as I'm still yet to experience this in any other task.

That said I tend to mostly fly AA2 and UK scenery.
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Re: No lift in very strong thermals

Post by congo » Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:54 am

I checked to see if there was any wind present, as wierd vortex effects used to appear in no wind scenarios, but there is 5 knots of wind present in this flight plan.

It is unusual for a task to have 'narrow' thermals selected, as they are just about useless for ballasted gliders in Condor, (unless you fly unballasted club class or older / slower gliders).

Perhaps the 'narrow' setting combined with the extremely high conditions is causing this?

When you set the cloudbase / inversion very high as in this .fpl, your 'Strong' thermal settings are very strong indeed due to the depth of the convective layer, as thermal strength in Condor2 is also controlled by the inversion height, not just the thermal strength settings and it's variation.

So, I would expect to find some extremely unpleasant effects in such an .fpl file set up in this way.

I did replicate the glitches at low altitude, seems to be a problem with Condor2 handling those low bubbles in this .fpl, it's not realistic and I see what the O.P. is saying, but I wouldn't set these parameters with the expectation of pilots catching thermals at extremely low altitudes, the thermals are strong, high and a long distance apart, you would obviously not want to get low in this task.
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