Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
In about half the mountain airports we try, the tow plane flies through trees then through mountains. Can we get a fix on that? Such a big bug seems more important than creating new gliders.
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
This is more poor scenery design then a Condor bug. Just like the gliders the towplanes have realistic performance. Not all airports are suitable for aerotows due to fast rising terrain or narrow valleys.
These airports should only be used with airborn starts or winchlaunching and be marked as such by the scenery creator or left out of the scenery.
These airports should only be used with airborn starts or winchlaunching and be marked as such by the scenery creator or left out of the scenery.
PH-1504, KOE
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
Just to elaborate a bit about the behaviour of the towplane. This is my observation of what I think the towplane does, but I might be wrong here:
1. On takeoff it will first accelerate to a safe speed. This seems dependent on the actual weight of the plane as it flies faster if you load water.
2. Climb on runway heading to 100 meters AGL.
3. Turn the shortest way to the start waypoint of the task.
4. Fly a straight line to the start if possible. If not it will orbit (left or right depending on where the terrain is).
5. After flying trough the start waypoint it will find the closest thermal. If no thermals exist it will orbit at the start waypoint.
6. after flying trough the thermal it will fly to the next closest.
It will complete 1, 2 and possibly 3 (i'm not sure about the last one) no matter what. So if there is terrain in the way the airport is not suitable for aerotows. If the valley is too narrow to do point 4, the start waypoint is chosen poorly. The towplane will perform fly with realistic climb performance and at safe bank angles (I guess about 20 degree's or so). You can't reasonably expect the Condor team to program some special route that might exist for a certain airport...
If point 3 is the problem. Consider placing the start upwind of the airport so the towplane flies straight ahead after takeoff. If the start waypoint is directly overhead the airport requiring the towplane to make a 180 it will randomly select a turn direction I think. If the valley is too narrow on one side, placing the start just next to the airport on the side where the valley is wider causes the towplane to always turn in that direction. That might solve part of the problems you are having.
1. On takeoff it will first accelerate to a safe speed. This seems dependent on the actual weight of the plane as it flies faster if you load water.
2. Climb on runway heading to 100 meters AGL.
3. Turn the shortest way to the start waypoint of the task.
4. Fly a straight line to the start if possible. If not it will orbit (left or right depending on where the terrain is).
5. After flying trough the start waypoint it will find the closest thermal. If no thermals exist it will orbit at the start waypoint.
6. after flying trough the thermal it will fly to the next closest.
It will complete 1, 2 and possibly 3 (i'm not sure about the last one) no matter what. So if there is terrain in the way the airport is not suitable for aerotows. If the valley is too narrow to do point 4, the start waypoint is chosen poorly. The towplane will perform fly with realistic climb performance and at safe bank angles (I guess about 20 degree's or so). You can't reasonably expect the Condor team to program some special route that might exist for a certain airport...
If point 3 is the problem. Consider placing the start upwind of the airport so the towplane flies straight ahead after takeoff. If the start waypoint is directly overhead the airport requiring the towplane to make a 180 it will randomly select a turn direction I think. If the valley is too narrow on one side, placing the start just next to the airport on the side where the valley is wider causes the towplane to always turn in that direction. That might solve part of the problems you are having.
PH-1504, KOE
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
I can understand that, but for very few airports. In all the cases I've flown, I can tell when I'm flying behind the tow plane that if it turned correctly, it would be easy to make it. So it's a poor algorithm, not a poor airport.wickid wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:08 pmThis is more poor scenery design then a Condor bug. Just like the gliders the towplanes have realistic performance. Not all airports are suitable for aerotows due to fast rising terrain or narrow valleys.
These airports should only be used with airborn starts or winchlaunching and be marked as such by the scenery creator or left out of the scenery.
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
Thanks for the insights.
It seems like the algorithm is almost there.
Maybe we could have some conditional statements that let the plane turn to when terrain gets in the way of 2 and 3.
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
I would personally be against turns below 100 AGL. Leaves very little room for error. And point 3 has a workaround by placing the start waypoint to the side you want the towplane to turn to.
It may not be perfect for you but at least it solves part of the problem. Still think it's a bad idea to start on aerotow in a narrow valley with full water. I also see many poorly designed tasks that exceed the maximum crosswind limits of most gliders as well (25 kph/13.5 kts) but that's another discussion
.
It may not be perfect for you but at least it solves part of the problem. Still think it's a bad idea to start on aerotow in a narrow valley with full water. I also see many poorly designed tasks that exceed the maximum crosswind limits of most gliders as well (25 kph/13.5 kts) but that's another discussion
.PH-1504, KOE
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
I had a quick try and the towplane does take terrain into consideration for point 3 listed above. It will only fly trough terrain if:
- there is sloping terrain directly behind the runway that rises faster then the towplane can climb.
- it can't make a safe 30 degree bank turn above 100 meters above the airfield elevation in either direction.
- it encounters a ridge enroute to the start waypoint and can't safely orbit in either direction.
All these points can be avoided by good task design or using winchlaunching/airborne starts. I can't recommend airports like Sollières in AA2 (which I used for my test) for aerotows although the towplane did a good job avoiding all the terrain with a heavy JS1 and a slight tailwind. I wonder what airports you are having trouble with.
- there is sloping terrain directly behind the runway that rises faster then the towplane can climb.
- it can't make a safe 30 degree bank turn above 100 meters above the airfield elevation in either direction.
- it encounters a ridge enroute to the start waypoint and can't safely orbit in either direction.
All these points can be avoided by good task design or using winchlaunching/airborne starts. I can't recommend airports like Sollières in AA2 (which I used for my test) for aerotows although the towplane did a good job avoiding all the terrain with a heavy JS1 and a slight tailwind. I wonder what airports you are having trouble with.
PH-1504, KOE
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
Something else must play a role. A week or two ago on tchintchin we had this problem. Roughly half the tows turned right, and in to the mountain. The other half turned left. I was lucky enough to be towed right. Twice. No audio, but here is the stream. First tow:
https://youtu.be/pXiaddbF8_8?t=821
Second tow:
https://youtu.be/pXiaddbF8_8?t=1561
you can see the fpl here:
https://youtu.be/pXiaddbF8_8?t=667
https://youtu.be/pXiaddbF8_8?t=821
Second tow:
https://youtu.be/pXiaddbF8_8?t=1561
you can see the fpl here:
https://youtu.be/pXiaddbF8_8?t=667
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
And some really underpowered tow planes should be removed. Cmelak rules!
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
There is high terrain on both sides for the turn towards the turnpoint. The hill to the left on takeoff might obstruct the towplanes path. I don't know the exact code behind the tow. Doesn't look like an ideal airport to tow from anyway. Rising terrain, narrow valley...
But your example could have been prevented by putting the start a bit upwind or in the valley to the left (about 10 o'clock after takeoff)
But your example could have been prevented by putting the start a bit upwind or in the valley to the left (about 10 o'clock after takeoff)
PH-1504, KOE
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
The start position would have been the same for the other players, and yet for about half of them, the tow plane turned left, and they could start without problems.
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
I know. I as I wrote above: if a 180 (like in that task) is required and either way is somehow obstructed by terrain it will turn randomly left or right in my experience.
PH-1504, KOE
Re: Is it too much to ask for tow planes that fly above ground?
In your examples, both the airfields are very special ones. In real life, you are not allowed to take off from Seyne with a tow plane, and Sollière is only authorized to mountain qualified pilots, and only in the SW direction. And nobody would ever try to take off from there with a big glider towed by a Piper cub.
But these airfields, like a lot of others, have an important gliding activity, so we need them in the AA2 scenery. It would be pointless to build an alpine scenery without mountain airfields.
But as most of these problems occur only in one specific direction, a very simple and efficient way to solve it would be to let the scenery builder to force a specific direction for these airfields, like in real life.
