Online Competitions - Things to Consider

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witor
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Re: Online Competitions - Things to Consider

Post by witor » Mon Dec 30, 2024 1:22 am

Vertigo wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2024 12:01 am
Why would you do that deliberately when you have every chance of completing the race and doubling or tripling your score?
Because with the system you are proposing for someone who wants to win the competition no score is better than a bad score. So players could be incentivised to use dirty tricks and lie. That possibility does not make me a fan of the system you are proposing.
Vertigo wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2024 12:01 am
And if there is only just circumstantial reason to believe you; say you vanished after 10 minutes for no apparent reason, the organizer could still decide to be lenient, take you on your word, and instead of giving a miniscule amount of distance points, pretend you didn't start.
And this is the other reason as it doesn't matter which way the decision is made it will always carry some shadow of a doubt. If you allow someone's race to be cancelled others might think that the pilot disconnected on purpose (like in my example), lied to you and got away with it. On the other hand, if I suddenly lose power I don't want to be at the mercy of the organisers and I don't feel that I should be required to prove that I am innocent and have done nothing shady.

The rules of competition should be as clear-cut as possible with as little human intervention and room for manipulation as possible. I believe that the system Condor Club offers already allows that. Yes, it could be argued that competitions are not very realistic, yes you could argue other things, but it would be very difficult to argue that CC does not allow for competition to be fair, and that takes the highest priority on my list.

Do you think the system you are proposing will be popular and appeal to a large 'audience'? I know this competition was successful a long time ago, but I think it was when we had over 500 pilots signed up for Skybattle... In the current day and age with lots of new pilots trying to find their way around the complicated world of C3 will they be interested?

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Vertigo
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Re: Online Competitions - Things to Consider

Post by Vertigo » Mon Dec 30, 2024 2:01 am

Because with the system you are proposing for someone who wants to win the competition no score is better than a bad score. So players could be incentivised to use dirty tricks and lie. That possibility does not make me a fan of the system you are proposing.
The payoff just isnt there, the point of LLC scoring is not to catch every potential rule bender who tries to get away from an inevitable crash (a crash that wouldnt matter in any other competition anyway); its that everyone is always incentivized to fly as close to RL as possible instead of being incentivized to roll the dice and take stupid risks no one would ever contemplate IRL. Any half competent pilot flying for a result is pretty much never going to get himself in to a position where he is likely to crash, because there is no pay off to taking big risks. Cheating only makes sense if first you decide to take some big risk against your own interest, and then for some reason you count on no one else seeing or recording this and being able to disconnect or somehow hide your bad outcome, but convince the jury it was some act of god, while at the same time, taking the risk of getting zero points, or even disqualified or banned if they find out you are full of sh*t. Its just not a sensible strategy and its definitely not a winning one.

Its quite possible someone someday will make a big mistake but get away with it through deceit, and thus may get a free pass or at least reduced penalty for a bad decision (which again everyone gets all the time in every other competition), but I dont see how its feasible to game the system systematically in some premeditated way. And if the prospect of someone rolling the dice and possibly once getting away with a reduced penalty after a bad decision annoys you, then how do current competitions make you feel?
And this is the other reason as it doesn't matter which way the decision is made it will always carry some shadow of a doubt. If you allow someone's race to be cancelled others might think that the pilot disconnected on purpose (like in my example), lied to you and got away with it.
Thats what the appeal is for. Doesnt every RL competition have a jury? If you dont trust their judgement based on the same evidence you have, then I guess dont participate?
On the other hand, if I suddenly lose power I don't want to be at the mercy of the organisers and I don't feel that I should be required to prove that I am innocent and have done nothing shady.
What happens in an FAI final if you lose power? You are not gonna win, are you. Is that unfair? LLC rules aim to minimize the effect of "bad luck" as much as possible, but its impossible to fully eliminate it. If a tree fall on your glider IRL, its not something rules can fix either. If you dont want to fly in a competition where a badly timed power outage potentially reduces (but never eliminates) your chances of winning, I suggest buying a UPS.

But its also worth pointing out that if you compare with something like CWC; the reality is that for almost every CWC pilot, a power outage actually results in zero points. Glancing over the last CWC, there seems to be only about 20 pilots who even managed to get just the bare minimum 17 counting starts and only 3 or 4? players who got at least 19. Those are about the only ones who might have a power outage and blue screen without undue penalty. Not a lot. I think we should focus more on the experience of the 200 other participants, or at least the 100 or so who fly semi regularly, whos end result in CWC is completely meaningless. It may be difficult to win an LLC style competition if you can fly only 10 out of 20 tasks, but its not impossible, especially since those flying many more tasks also risk a bad result every time they fly; but for sure your result will be far more representative.
Do you think the system you are proposing will be popular and appeal to a large 'audience'? I know this competition was successful a long time ago, but I think it was when we had over 500 pilots signed up for Skybattle... In the current day and age with lots of new pilots trying to find their way around the complicated world of C3 will they be interested?

If nothing else, I hope at least anyone flying IRL would be very keen in being able to use a condor competition flying as a training tool for safe mountain flying and familiarizing themselves with actual outlanding fields in regions like the Alps, and I suppose actually having a competitive benefit from your FES plane would be a welcome change too. People who are consistent, but not fast enough for frequent podium finishes ought to be interested, as no other competition will give them better odds of good results. Lastly, CC competitions are almost all essentially the same and have been for more than a decade, I think we agree enthusiasm seems dwindling. Would an LLC style competition change that? I dont know, there is only one way to find out.
Last edited by Vertigo on Mon Dec 30, 2024 11:19 am, edited 9 times in total.

Tom
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Re: Online Competitions - Things to Consider

Post by Tom » Mon Dec 30, 2024 2:20 am

At the end of the day what attracts players is the tasks, how good are they do they represent a challenge etc.

The way most comps in the past worked was if you started the task your score counted no matter what, a disconnection without a ftr was simply treated as a crash = zero points. No way to prove if it was genuine power loss etc. no 100% way to prove it was someone pulling the ethernet connection, hitting alt f4 etc. Just a case of better luck next time, no ftr upload = treated as a crash.

One of the things that I tried and made it made Aces High Very successful was the way that it worked.

1 Every race was any glider could be chosen and the races were all handicapped.
2 Every race counted.
3 No FTR = crash zero points.
4 no disconnecting and changing glider and rejoining , what ya showed up in is the glider you flew the task in.
5. But the main thing was the tasks get them right and ya 99.999% if the way.

Every month the leaderboard was reset so you could always have a chance at a better placing the next month.

I look at the leagues and comps now and they are basically mostly the same thing just under a different brand, people like variety, give them that and a challenge and your servers will get full quickly.
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JLN
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Re: Online Competitions - Things to Consider

Post by JLN » Wed Jan 01, 2025 5:01 pm

Happy New Year to everybody !!!!!!!!

Just the opinion of an average pilot about online competitions.

what makes I participate when I look to a new competition ?
I precise that when I participate I try to fly the max possible races.

I regret to say that the first factor is the day/time of the races. I know that this is very reducer but
1 - I live in France and I cannot (ok, want not) begin after 20 h UTC.
2 - I have other activities and I am not free every evening.

So I would like to have more often different time zones for competitions. I know that this has been discussed many times but it is probably possible to make that uncheatable, or just for “fun competitions”....

I also appreciate when there is only one competition a week because more limit the place for other competitions.

On the result side I would really appreciate that the “No ftr for the following pilot” syndrom should be eradicated. It seems less frequent than last year but exists again.

https://www.condorsoaring.com/forums/vi ... 15#p184258
https://www.condorsoaring.com/forums/vi ... 07#p183669

I already evocate a long time ago but I continue to think that registration is not a need.
https://www.condorsoaring.com/forums/vi ... 44#p182694

All pilots participating would be classified and ccrated. Briefing would be opened to everybody 1/4 h before the join time.

I have noticed that last year in the Championnat de France eplaneur competition, there were disqualifications. I do not know how it worked but this gives a plus in realism.
https://www.condor.club/comp/besttimes/0/?id=23975

After that, on the flight side,

I prefer regata starts.
I like aerotow but I think that it is not adapted to many competitors - too long to have every body launched. So a hight airstart, making easy to reach the start fast after the end of the jointime, even if launched at the begining of the launch time.
I appreciate to have sometimes good weather conditions.
I think that in moderate difficulty flights a majority of competitors should finish...
I also like some “no PDA” races.

I hope that we will have in Condor Club new briefings with details of weather zones, because now we have infos just when joining.

CircusOz
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Re: Online Competitions - Things to Consider

Post by CircusOz » Thu Jan 02, 2025 8:58 am

One reason for small participation rates from people in the oceania region time zone like : Australia , New Zealand , Japan is that weekday comps held in the evening UTC , is when we are getting up to go to work . And USA comps midweek are in the middle of the day here . Our choices unless retired from work are limited.

JLN
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Re: Online Competitions - Things to Consider

Post by JLN » Thu Jan 02, 2025 10:39 pm

Just a suggestion :
As we cannot have the weather indications and weather zones before the server opens and only at that moment we can see them in the flight planner, would it be possible to have the fpl downloadable at the same time than the briefing to see all in Condor ? That would give competitors the briefing time to prepare the flight.
Just for the time to Condor Club to change and give all necessary informations.

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Vertigo
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Re: Online Competitions - Things to Consider

Post by Vertigo » Thu Jan 02, 2025 10:54 pm

Downloading the actual FPL opens some opportunities for wannabee cheaters. I do agree ppl should have more time to prepare, ideally CC would interpret and display weather zones as well as visualize airspace zones (it could also help if condor lets you "print" this information so tasksetters can easily share that). I imagine this is not trivial, until thierry manages this, task setters could at least post the task TPs with airspace restrictions, so upon joining you "only" need to ingest the weather /zone settings.

JLN
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Re: Online Competitions - Things to Consider

Post by JLN » Fri Jan 03, 2025 7:09 am

I agree. I thought to the possibility to download the fpl at the time when Condor club shows weather informations. 15 mn (or 10 it it is too much) before the joining time.
I suppose that Airspace restrictions are allways the same. So it is possible to have a look to them in the task planner of Condor in the landscape.

Some task setters make such briefing maps which are perfect (on Condor cafe or Condor St ex)

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/i ... 003_01.jpg

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Vertigo
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Re: Online Competitions - Things to Consider

Post by Vertigo » Sun Jan 05, 2025 12:04 pm

JLN wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 7:09 am
Some task setters make such briefing maps which are perfect (on Condor cafe or Condor St ex)

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/i ... 003_01.jpg
Wow. thats really nice. Its also a lot of work; it looks like the condor printout manually adjusted, unless there is some tool to generate that, that Im not aware off? But whats still missing is easy to digest airspace info, thats really hard to see on a screenshot of the condor task page, especially when there are weather zones. For airspace, I just started using xcsoar screenshots in the e-glide competition, as they are very clear, show only active airspace (after conversion with cotaco) with height labels :

https://shorturl.at/pgwSy

I also feel like these kind of "general" information should be given more than 15 minutes in advance, I see no harm posting that several hours or even a day ahead.

Jannes
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Re: Online Competitions - Things to Consider

Post by Jannes » Mon Jan 06, 2025 10:50 am

Vertigo wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2024 12:04 am
Ill toss in my 2 cents. Im l largely agreed with witor. TBH I had not even considered the first point about CCrating, I thought the point you were going to make was that ccrating matters to some, so make sure its enabled; but what you say I guess makes sense.
That's me to be honest. I really like the idea of a continous scoring in the background. It's pretty difficult to participate often enough for decent overall results in several competitions at once. And having ccRating enabled is a nice way to still have a global reference for your progression/standing when only attending a couple of races. Not having to make too many compromises with real-life then.

But as witor said - ccRated comps should definetly match a higher standard than random competitions.
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