CWC 2023 day 1

[Paul_UK]

I think the idea linking with the Condor License could be a good idea

So two brothers or sisters with one pc and one Condor licence will not be allowed to participate?

Hadn't thought of that one.

I think it will be to much (buy a webcam/privacy issue), streaming software, some FPS issues with old PCs. And if someone flew the task 2 houres before he will remember everything so what you want to see on stream? He's thoughts?

I think 1 timezone of big comps solves everything (look at VSGP 2021). But some ppl will be disadvantaged with it...

It'd still have to be monitored, which I assume FAI tasks / comps will be. Probably a non starter though looking at your thoughts. Hopefully we are just over thinking a little and we can rely on the community to not cheat......

[mada2000]

To avoid cheaters and have a fun with live streaming and having the zones to enable competition for all pilots around the word I can see the only one solution till now - random weather. There is only one assumtion - the "random weather" means more or less similar conditions which are set by tasksetter in tje task. If so I am sure, that the winners will bo the best pilots taking into account many of tasks and long cometition - 15 task in CWC2023.
Good example is the first task in CWC2023 - 5 best pilots - 5 different servers - it means in my opinion - the random weather means - more or less the same on each server (basing on taks settings)
Please ensure me OXO
but even if so, lots of pilots would be disappointed if they met poor weather conditions than others in their server
Regarda
Adam - AGO

[BOD1]

One thing I could make is unregister participant who didn't participate (ie didn't post FTR) after N missed race days (with N>=2).
Registration must be closed at the beginning of the competition and there must not be too many uncounted days (i.e. the 5 best days out of 6).
It would limit a bit, without eliminating cheating completely, and cheating would be more visible.

[Snapcase]

One thing I could make is unregister participant who didn't participate (ie didn't post FTR) after N missed race days (with N>=2).
Registration must be closed at the beginning of the competition and there must not be too many uncounted days (i.e. the 5 best days out of 6).
It would limit a bit, without eliminating cheating completely, and cheating would be more visible.

So cheater will create new CC account on every 2 tasks. Or he will be prepared and create few accounts before Comp start (tasks number divided / 2).

How about connecting CC account with Condor registry ID?

If someone want fly as 6266 said - One Condor Licence / PC = two people in one house - there could be information in CC :

"This account is linked with "xxxxx" account".

You could still fly but other ppl will see:

Server A 17:15 UTC:
Pilot XYZ (Linked with Pilot AAA) - logged on server, no FTR sent.

Server A 23:15 UTC:
Pilot AAA (Linked with Pilot AAA) - logged on server, FTR sent, 1st place


If someone will fly well with linked accounts banned every 2 task's - it will be easy to catch.

[Paul_UK]

To avoid cheaters and have a fun with live streaming and having the zones to enable competition for all pilots around the word I can see the only one solution till now - random weather. There is only one assumtion - the "random weather" means more or less similar conditions which are set by tasksetter in tje task. If so I am sure, that the winners will bo the best pilots taking into account many of tasks and long cometition - 15 task in CWC2023.
Good example is the first task in CWC2023 - 5 best pilots - 5 different servers - it means in my opinion - the random weather means - more or less the same on each server (basing on taks settings)
Please ensure me OXO
but even if so, lots of pilots would be disappointed if they met poor weather conditions than others in their server
Regarda
Adam - AGO

It depends on the system used to randomise the weather. Easiest way I can think of is take the original start time and either add or subtract 10 to 15minutes. In the instances where task time is late in the day if it were to be this and plus 15minutes it could mean one server sees weaker conditions nearing the end of the task.

I'm not saying weather randomisation is conducted in this way, it's simply my first simplistic thought, maybe the dev team could explain how the weather is randomised?

[BOD1]

So cheater will create new CC account on every 2 tasks

Nope, because registration for competition will be closed.

[Pit_R]

Hello!
Interesting discussion.
FYI: With "Randomize weather on each flight" weather is the same - just initial position of clouds is different (randseed*) => situation is similar to probability of different clouds/thermals on your path - depends on your start time... As was mentioned before I guess. Of course purists (including me) would like to race against others with exactly the same RandSeed.
Notice: Even wx is same, diff places of clouds will occur and if cloud appear in flat or over ridge it may be very important to someone... On next server it may be not so good. From other hand - very huge start time diff. - someone start after line open vs very late starters [this also shows that important is how long gate is open and what it implies] - may give similar situation in natural manner. For sure cloud randomization is not applicable to regattas, if are planned in CWC too.
Well - when using time zones cheating is rather easy (2nd profile, Spectato Feature, watching others on YT or simply acquiring ftr from earlier pilot); organizers and participants assume that people play fair - and this have sense - if so, setting password is simply unnecessary...

Well, If I may add my 2c...

Good recipe for nice races:

- 1 km icons [No 30 km or 5 km. Short icons are needed to stop people following each other; pilots just flying their own, no gaggles, no leech, no visual crowd.]
BTW Why not to allow thermal helpers? Are very similar to 5-30 km icons. During such big events as CWC or GP, gliders are visible for long and are many of them. Same time there is still possibility to escape, to hide, to make important/key decision etc - this is also part of soaring races.
- no cargo tasks [Start and finish on same airfield]
- no outside view
- no time zones (or with randseed)
- no spectato mode [or for the pleasure of those just watching - Spectato / YT / Twitch - with obligatory 10 mins delay, I bet it will be implemented in C3 soon. ]
- realistic tasks [no obstacles on route, too high TPs, TPs in clouds etc]
- reasonable speeds
- weather more or less, but realistic
- no RT scoring
- no padlock view (will be better implemented in C3 I expect)


*)
Data from D1: KOE, Serv. ID: 2093597924, (11:15 PM) vs A33, Serv. ID: 137845652 (7:15 PM)

wx.png

[wickid]

Hello!
Interesting discussion.
FYI: With "Randomize weather on each flight" weather is the same - just initial position of clouds is different (randseed*) => situation is similar to probability of different clouds/thermals on your path - depends on your start time... As was mentioned before I guess. Of course purists (including me) would like to race against others with exactly the same RandSeed.
Notice: Even wx is same, diff places of clouds will occur and if cloud appear in flat or over ridge it may be very important to someone... On next server it may be not so good. From other hand - very huge start time diff. - someone start after line open vs very late starters [this also shows that important is how long gate is open and what it implies] - may give similar situation in natural manner. For sure cloud randomization is not applicable to regattas, if are planned in CWC too.

The random seed is different from waiting. With the same random seed the weather will always evolve the same. So conditions for those waiting longer between servers are the same.

The problem with different random seeds are plenty:

- Say a day starts relatively late and you are in danger of running out of thermals at the end. You want to start early... but no thermal in your server, but there is a strong one in another.

- Great thermal to help you over an obstacle in one server, where as on other servers people have to scratch on a ridge with half the climbrate.

- regatta task, difficulty getting a good start position because the start sector is blue in one server, where there is a thermal nicely in the middle of the sector in another.

- Somebody finds a thermal that helps you jump into the wave early on in the task and get a great climb, where others don't have that thermal and you don't get the opportunity.

And I can come up with many more. But I think that demonstrates the point that different random seeds is a bad idea to get a level playing field. Even if it has other cheating implications which can be minimised by:

- disabling spectate (already done by CWC).
- Setting passwords so you can't log in to earlier timeslots so easily
- Checking for ghost accounts on Condor Club as BOD1 already suggested.
- Asking people not to stream or only publish streams until after the last timeslot.

[witor]

My first thought when I went through this thread was that it is great that we have so many people who care about condor competitions and fairness and that everyone is being constructive and tries to solve problems. My thought on issues mentioned so far are as follows:

1) One time zone - yes this would be ideal and we all all seem to agree on that, but unfortunately it would exclude people from different time zones. We can't expect people to fly condor when they are at work or slipping, so if we still want to call it a WORLD cup we just must have the zones and unfortunately there is no way around it.

2) Randomise weather- Firstly we need to know for sure what this setting actually does The manual says this: 'On every flight, the weather will be randomized within the weather preset limits.' So if I understand correctly positioning and strength of thermals is a bit like rolling a set of dice. If we roll 4 dice we might get 2,2,3,5. On another server without weather randomised we get the same 2,2,3,5, but on the one where all weather settings are the same, but randomisation was on we might get 3,1,2,6 . each digit gas the same probability of 1/6. Of course the sample size condor is much bigger and it is like rolling thousands of dice not just 4. If that's how 'randomise weather' works then it doesn't really matter on which server you fly and I would vote for weather to be randomised on each server. I know that this is not ideal, but I think it is the best we could do to prevent potential cheating (or at least make it more difficult). I say that it doesn't mater on which server you fly because in a non regatta race pilots start tasks at different times anyway. One can start straight away and be lucky and get a thermal in a key moment, or one can start half an hour later and get lucky. Starting tasks at different times on the same server (of course if the time difference is not big enough for general conditions to change) effectively just randomises the weather! On first CWC tasks top ten flew on different servers, not on the same one, which shows that randomise weather had nothing to do with winning or loosing. Randomise weather should not be used for regatta races because everyone starts at the same time, but that is not a problem for CWC because CWC does not have any regatta races.

It looks like, although not ideal, randomise weather would solve most of the issues we are concerned about (it it works the way I think it works) Condor is a bit like poker. It is a probability game. It is not about just one race. Once you get lucky once you get unlucky, who generally makes best decisions wins!

Hello!

Good recipe for nice races:

- 1 km icons [No 30 km or 5 km. Short icons are needed to stop people following each other; pilots just flying their own, no gaggles, no leech, no visual crowd.]
BTW Why not to allow thermal helpers? Are very similar to 5-30 km icons. During such big events as CWC or GP, gliders are visible for long and are many of them. Same time there is still possibility to escape, to hide, to make important/key decision etc - this is also part of soaring races.
- no cargo tasks [Start and finish on same airfield]
- no outside view
- no time zones (or with randseed)
- no spectato mode [or for the pleasure of those just watching - Spectato / YT / Twitch - with obligatory 10 mins delay, I bet it will be implemented in C3 soon. ]
- realistic tasks [no obstacles on route, too high TPs, TPs in clouds etc]
- reasonable speeds
- weather more or less, but realistic
- no RT scoring
- no padlock view (will be better implemented in C3 I expect)


*)

1km icons - horrible idea. If I wanted to fly offline I could do that without signing in for a live online competition. This is a reason I stopped flying Condorworld competition and I will just let the guys play in their own sandpit. at the end of the day it is beautiful that condor allows everyone to do what they want. If someone wants 1km icons great, there are competitions which have that, but let's not change CWC into offline racing....

no outside view - I agree, but I do not have strong feelings about this. At the end of the day external view is available to all, so it is not unfair.

realistic tasks - we do condor for fun, lets keep it that way. Maybe we will start running with buckets of water around the house to simulate reality? Or maybe we should polish some wooden planks to simulate our gliders being nice smooth and ready? Just because we can't afford going to New Zealand in real world and must fly over flat and boring terrain of our countries doesn't mean that we should do the same in condor. We need some balance between fun an realism and I think CWC has it almost right.

'cargo tasks' - I don't see why this matters. Nobody will ask anybody to drive to retrieve a glider...

No spectator - if weather is randomised I don't think this really matters, and watching others after you crash can be quite fun, so why not.

No RT scoring - agree, but there is already no RT scoring on CWC

[wickid]

1) One time zone - yes this would be ideal and we all all seem to agree on that, but unfortunately it would exclude people from different time zones. We can't expect people to fly condor when they are at work or slipping, so if we still want to call it a WORLD cup we just must have the zones and unfortunately there is no way around it.

I agree with this, I have no problems with the timezones.

2) Randomise weather- Firstly we need to know for sure what this setting actually does The manual says this: 'On every flight, the weather will be randomized within the weather preset limits.' So if I understand correctly positioning and strength of thermals is a bit like rolling a set of dice. If we roll 4 dice we might get 2,2,3,5. On another server without weather randomised we get the same 2,2,3,5, but on the one where all weather settings are the same, but randomisation was on we might get 3,1,2,6 . each digit gas the same probability of 1/6. Of course the sample size condor is much bigger and it is like rolling thousands of dice not just 4. If that's how 'randomise weather' works then it doesn't really matter on which server you fly and I would vote for weather to be randomised on each server. I know that this is not ideal, but I think it is the best we could do to prevent potential cheating (or at least make it more difficult). I say that it doesn't mater on which server you fly because in a non regatta race pilots start tasks at different times anyway. One can start straight away and be lucky and get a thermal in a key moment, or one can start half an hour later and get lucky. Starting tasks at different times on the same server (of course if the time difference is not big enough for general conditions to change) effectively just randomises the weather! On first CWC tasks top ten flew on different servers, not on the same one, which shows that randomise weather had nothing to do with winning or loosing. Randomise weather should not be used for regatta races because everyone starts at the same time, but that is not a problem for CWC because CWC does not have any regatta races.

It looks like, although not ideal, randomise weather would solve most of the issues we are concerned about (it it works the way I think it works) Condor is a bit like poker. It is a probability game. It is not about just one race. Once you get lucky once you get unlucky, who generally makes best decisions wins!

The way I understand it is. The random seed is the initial plugin for the algorithm that generates the thermals. It, together with the thermal activity setting and the thermal map determines for the whole scenery where the thermals form. Over the whole day the same number of thermals will form. But their locations are randomly distributed and different with each seed.

Now, as we are taking only a small area of the scenery to actually fly our task and the limited portion of the day. The number and location of thermals encountered during the task may be vastly different between seeds. If the task is long enough it will average out. So over a whole competition it might be fair. But it doesn't take away that one random strong, lucky thermal in one server that helps you win. What I don't like about the random seed is that it is impossible to compare your results on the day itself and see where I made a mistake so I can do better the next day.

1km icons - horrible idea. If I wanted to fly offline I could do that without signing in for a live online competition. This is a reason I stopped flying Condorworld competition and I will just let the guys play in their own sandpit. at the end of the day it is beautiful that condor allows everyone to do what they want. If someone wants 1km icons great, there are competitions which have that, but let's not change CWC into offline racing....

I don't mind icons being at 1 km. But it would be nice if the gliders were more visible at a distance without the icons. The occasional glint you get in real life to spot a gaggle a few kms away is missing in Condor.

No spectator - if weather is randomised I don't think this really matters, and watching others after you crash can be quite fun, so why not.

I don't think this is clever. I wouldn't like somebody with a "gods eye" helping others and telling them how strong climbs ahead are, or what the best routing is through some mountains, because he can just jump back and forth. Also a spectator can see the live scoring even if it is turned off for flying pilots. It is nice for fun flights like TchinTchin ect. But not for serious competitions.

[witor]

Sorry Wiek looks like we were typing at the same time and you post came just before my previous one. Few thought about what you wrote

The problem with different random seeds are plenty:

- Say a day starts relatively late and you are in danger of running out of thermals at the end. You want to start early... but no thermal in your server, but there is a strong one in another.

Well on this occasion if you are on the 'bad server' you were just unlucky, next time maybe others will be unlucky. But this is not different than being on the same server. One pilot starts the tasks and half an hour later at a key mountain pass gets the lucky thermal, climbs and passes while the second pilot who started on the same server 5 minutes later arrives to the same spot 5 minutes after the first pilot to find the thermal already on the lee side and spends next 15 minutes ridge soaring in 1m/s... Should the second pilot claim that he lost because he was unlucky and that this task should be cancelled because others got the thermal and he did not? I am sure you agree with me that second pilot has nothing to complain about. This is gliding. Like I said before it is a probability game...

- Great thermal to help you over an obstacle in one server, where as on other servers people have to scratch on a ridge with half the climbrate.

I think I addressed this in the previous paragraph.

- regatta task, difficulty getting a good start position because the start sector is blue in one server, where there is a thermal nicely in the middle of the sector in another.

Totally agree. Randomised weather should never be used on regatta races. I would go even further and I would say that regatta races should only be conducted on one server where everyone flies together. I know that this is not possible if there are more than 64 competitors.

- Somebody finds a thermal that helps you jump into the wave early on in the task and get a great climb, where others don't have that thermal and you don't get the opportunity.

Same point as before

In general I still think that randomise weather could be the easiest way to tackle our concerns. Of course if it works the way I think it works. I also agree that it is not ideal and that it would be better if everyone had the same weather, but I think this is the least evil we can do...

Sorry again... I typed this before seeing the previous post, but I think my points are still valid. Wiek you are too quick for me and I can't keep up

[wickid]

Well on this occasion if you are on the 'bad server' you were just unlucky, next time maybe others will be unlucky. But this is not different than being on the same server. One pilot starts the tasks and half an hour later at a key mountain pass gets the lucky thermal, climbs and passes while the second pilot who started on the same server 5 minutes later arrives to the same spot 5 minutes after the first pilot to find the thermal already on the lee side and spends next 15 minutes ridge soaring in 1m/s... Should the second pilot claim that he lost because he was unlucky and that this task should be cancelled because others got the thermal and he did not? I am sure you agree with me that second pilot has nothing to complain about. This is gliding. Like I said before it is a probability game...

I think this is different. In your case of starting late, I at least had the same opportunity of starting late. It may have been the better option and I could learn from my mistake. If the random seed is different I may never get that chance because the thermal will probably never form in that location.

I know that this is not possible if there are more than 64 competitors.

It is possible. Our DCG competition has the server limit set to 128. But it can also be set to unlimited. During Covid we once managed to get over 120 people in one server and it worked fine. Maybe the occasional FPS drop when there were 40 people in one gaggle, but that also happens with regatta starts.

Sorry again... I typed this before seeing the previous post, but I think my points are still valid. Wiek you are too quick for me and I can't keep up

No worries. I'll be in my car for the next hour or so. So you have plenty of time to respond now

[Paul_UK]

1km icons - horrible idea. If I wanted to fly offline I could do that without signing in for a live online competition. This is a reason I stopped flying Condorworld competition and I will just let the guys play in their own sandpit. at the end of the day it is beautiful that condor allows everyone to do what they want. If someone wants 1km icons great, there are competitions which have that, but let's not change CWC into offline racing....

no outside view - I agree, but I do not have strong feelings about this. At the end of the day external view is available to all, so it is not unfair.

realistic tasks - we do condor for fun, lets keep it that way. Maybe we will start running with buckets of water around the house to simulate reality? Or maybe we should polish some wooden planks to simulate our gliders being nice smooth and ready? Just because we can't afford going to New Zealand in real world and must fly over flat and boring terrain of our countries doesn't mean that we should do the same in condor. We need some balance between fun an realism and I think CWC has it almost right.

'cargo tasks' - I don't see why this matters. Nobody will ask anybody to drive to retrieve a glider...

No spectator - if weather is randomised I don't think this really matters, and watching others after you crash can be quite fun, so why not.

No RT scoring - agree, but there is already no RT scoring on CWC

VSC flew a blue, Club class task with 1km icons in a race series. Most found it quite fun actually having to do a decent lookout to see other gliders thermalling ahead. We don't often use that icon distance but I thought in that task it might add a little variation. I got lucky it was received well. As you say Witor we all have our own preferences and Condor allows us all to make use of those. Would be nice if the gliders maybe shined a little more when reflecting in the sun, like in RL, which makes it a bit easier to pick them out in RL than in Condor.

Ref the outside view. Yes if one has it all have it but you have to be sure to share the 'look ahead' capability if this is active. Even though I've been flying Condor for many years (Flew Condor 1), I only found out about how you could go into outside view and zoom right out to view what lies ahead thermal wise either last year or the year before. You cannot obtain this view angle advantage in RL so for me my preference is to disable that in comps. I don't really see the point in it when flying apart for taking screen shots.

[witor]

Well on this occasion if you are on the 'bad server' you were just unlucky, next time maybe others will be unlucky. But this is not different than being on the same server. One pilot starts the tasks and half an hour later at a key mountain pass gets the lucky thermal, climbs and passes while the second pilot who started on the same server 5 minutes later arrives to the same spot 5 minutes after the first pilot to find the thermal already on the lee side and spends next 15 minutes ridge soaring in 1m/s... Should the second pilot claim that he lost because he was unlucky and that this task should be cancelled because others got the thermal and he did not? I am sure you agree with me that second pilot has nothing to complain about. This is gliding. Like I said before it is a probability game...

I think this is different. In your case of starting late, I at least had the same opportunity of starting late. It may have been the better option and I could learn from my mistake. If the random seed is different I may never get that chance because the thermal will probably never form in that location.

The pilot who started later had no chance of predicting when there will be a thermal at a key pass which is half an hour flying from the start line, so the fact that he started late was not a 'mistake' or a 'good' decision. The situation could be reversed. The first pilot could arrive to early spent 10 minutes on ridge and then get the thermal, while second pilot could arrive just on time. The point is that there is no way of avoiding luck in condor gliding, so randomise weather doesn't change the outcome of a long competition. Believe me, I was pissed off so many times when I got unlucky. I told my mates many times that I wish condor was like chess, just decision making no luck, but with time I grew to accept that luck is a part of condor and there is nothing we can do about it. We can accept it, or find our self a different hobby instead of condor racing.

I know that this is not possible if there are more than 64 competitors.

It is possible. Our DCG competition has the server limit set to 128. But it can also be set to unlimited. During Covid we once managed to get over 120 people in one server and it worked fine. Maybe the occasional FPS drop when there were 40 people in one gaggle, but that also happens with regatta starts.

Sorry again... I typed this before seeing the previous post, but I think my points are still valid. Wiek you are too quick for me and I can't keep up

No worries. I'll be in my car for the next hour or so. So you have plenty of time to respond now

Great to know that we can have more than 64 on one regatta race. Thanks for giving me a chance to type. I also hope that I will get a chance to race you on CWC when I finally learn how to keep the wings attached to my glider during start. After about 12 years of condor I am getting there... Hopefully next time I will manage Best wishes for your journey and drive safely - definitely not like I fly in condor

[witor]

1km icons - horrible idea. If I wanted to fly offline I could do that without signing in for a live online competition. This is a reason I stopped flying Condorworld competition and I will just let the guys play in their own sandpit. at the end of the day it is beautiful that condor allows everyone to do what they want. If someone wants 1km icons great, there are competitions which have that, but let's not change CWC into offline racing....

no outside view - I agree, but I do not have strong feelings about this. At the end of the day external view is available to all, so it is not unfair.

realistic tasks - we do condor for fun, lets keep it that way. Maybe we will start running with buckets of water around the house to simulate reality? Or maybe we should polish some wooden planks to simulate our gliders being nice smooth and ready? Just because we can't afford going to New Zealand in real world and must fly over flat and boring terrain of our countries doesn't mean that we should do the same in condor. We need some balance between fun an realism and I think CWC has it almost right.

'cargo tasks' - I don't see why this matters. Nobody will ask anybody to drive to retrieve a glider...

No spectator - if weather is randomised I don't think this really matters, and watching others after you crash can be quite fun, so why not.

No RT scoring - agree, but there is already no RT scoring on CWC

VSC flew a blue, Club class task with 1km icons in a race series. Most found it quite fun actually having to do a decent lookout to see other gliders thermalling ahead. We don't often use that icon distance but I thought in that task it might add a little variation. I got lucky it was received well. As you say Witor we all have our own preferences and Condor allows us all to make use of those. Would be nice if the gliders maybe shined a little more when reflecting in the sun, like in RL, which makes it a bit easier to pick them out in RL than in Condor.

Ref the outside view. Yes if one has it all have it but you have to be sure to share the 'look ahead' capability if this is active. Even though I've been flying Condor for many years (Flew Condor 1), I only found out about how you could go into outside view and zoom right out to view what lies ahead thermal wise either last year or the year before. You cannot obtain this view angle advantage in RL so for me my preference is to disable that in comps. I don't really see the point in it when flying apart for taking screen shots.

I totally agree than it would be best if we could see gliders in condor the same way as we can see them in RL, but we are not there yet, so icons is the best substitute we can have, that's why I don't like when distance is set to 1km as this feels like flying offline. But this is just my preference and like I said before it is great that condor allows all sorts of settings so we can have something for everyone.

In terms of the outside view, I was always against but I was slowly getting convinced that maybe it is ok. Now I think that Wiek and you convinced me back to thinking that in serious competitions outside view and spectator mode should be off.