FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

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timbaeyens
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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by timbaeyens » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:28 pm

Why has the small turnpoint just after the start been implemented ( also in RL task) ?
This cannot be safe, certainly not in Condor where we fly with 40+ in a server (as opposed to 14 in RL).
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Bre901
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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by Bre901 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:04 pm

I have noticed that too.
The Condor tasks have exactly the same TPs as IRL
My guess is that it's there in order to keep the gliders away from the Lugano CTR

Edited to add that today the 1st leg is due east, and that TP is no present, which supports my guess


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LoreCuk
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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by LoreCuk » Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:46 pm

I really like the sgp format but there is a problem with the weather.
The weather should be more realistic.
Today there were lots of clouds like yesterday, but on condor it was like a high pressure day with almost no clouds.
Yesterday task was completely different from the real weather, narrow thermals while in reality the day was very good.
Also the wind must be tweaked because condor doesn't factor the channeling in the valleys.

Regarding the 1000 point system I think it's not fair for pilots who fly at different time slots
and it does not make sense in a regatta competition.
I think that the best way to do this type of competition is the method used in the last FFVP race.

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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by BOD1 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:23 pm

LoreCuk wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:46 pm
Regarding the 1000 point system I think it's not fair for pilots who fly at different time slots
and it does not make sense in a regatta competition.
It's not the score from Condor which is used, but the one from Condor Club, where all competitors are merged in a single race day (whatever the slot they used), so only one pilot can reach 1000 points.
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LoreCuk
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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by LoreCuk » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:26 pm

I know, it's still has no sense.

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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by BOD1 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:32 pm

Why doesn't it make sense or is unfair then?
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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by LoreCuk » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:41 pm

If you fly a regatta everyone start together, so if in the first server there are 40 pilots you can follow
the best pilots and have higher speeds, if there are only 10 pilots flying in the moring server they have less possibility
to go fast.
I think that if you want to recreate the real competition you have to divide all the pilots in smaller 20 pilots server with
SGP scoring. Then you let them fly for like 4 days always in the same server then you take the best 2 of every server and make
them fly together for the last days.

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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by EDB » Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:03 am

For me the join time of 15 minutes seems a bit off. If servers don't start on time (which they did when the competition went from 30 min join-time to 15 min join-time) you check ones... a few minutes later again... and before you know it you already miss 5 of those 15 minutes. We still have no "time left to join" indicator in the GUI so you speed up your routine and forget to read the weather or you forget something else...

Then we come in air that has hardly any good looking thermal so we first fly to the ridge for about 2 minutes to find out it only gives 0.7m/s... with 6 minutes left (8 minutes minus 2 minutes start prep) we need to be lucky to get on start altitude. Task 4 had a 1600m max start altitude, I flew over the line (a lot of seconds after the line was already open) at 1297m with 193kmh. So I loose 300m (400m compared to a good fast start) and I haven't even flown one kilometer... I wasn't the only one. How many minutes did the real pilots get to get on altitude? Also 8 minutes..? A regatta should have at least 20 minutes before the line opens, not 10.

Can you give me an example of a real pilot that had access to external views?

And time-slots, well... okay... To give people the option to at least fly. But then turn on "Randomize weather on each flight"..!

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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by Pit_R » Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:41 pm

EDB wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:03 am

Can you give me an example of a real pilot that had access to external views?

Pilot with OOBE phenomenon? RL racers could also have info with real time average speed/distance of all pilots + 5 km icons visible against the sky (icons should be permanently attached to the gliders for the whole race). ;)
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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by wickid » Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:05 pm

Well icons I can sort of understand. In RL you have Flarm radar ect. But I agree with external views and real time scoring.

It is a fair attempt at a competition like this. But in the future some things need to be thought about a bit better. Like:

- jointime and possibility for everybody to get a good starting position
- random weather when multiple servers/livestreams are used
- start height and the possibility of using engines to get a better starting position
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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by EDB » Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:02 pm

I'm just brainstorming...

What if we remove the detailed briefing 15 minutes before the race? Add this 15 minutes to the current 15 minutes join time to get into the server to see the detailed briefing there and have the option to manual set your flight computer, read the weather, plan your flight with your buddies. 30 minutes to prepare. But, but... You aren't yet able to Join the Flight into the air... That Join Flight Button is a 30 minutes countdown timer... it Counts down to the moment of 20 minutes for race in. When it is 20 minutes Race In you can push the button to Join the Flight. Everyone can fly at the same time. Have the same Race in Time. Every Server will have the same (synced servers?) Race-In start time. And then have 1 minute or 3 minutes or whatever amount of minutes where crashes are disabled...

... just brainstorming...

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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by Pit_R » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:07 pm

TIMINGS
At the beginning it was 30 min + 20 min => ppl could start after 50 minutes.
I guess later (msg via e-mail) it was changed to 15 min join time + 20 min till start (and this sounded reasonable for regatta).
But finally it was shortened to 15 minutes of join and 10 minutes delay before race start. 10 minutes is not enough esp. join alt is 300 m lower with rare and weak thermals/ridge. At D4 I was join very late, as usually over airfield at south of start line, it was 300 m to gain just start alt, not to mention smthn more, in weak at north, near ridge + than again move for good position to the middle of start line, all was difficult to do in 10-11 min.

IMHO, simple solution:
15 min for join (on-air join altitude could be just little lower than start - no problem in very weak weather)
20 min. delay before regatta race would be optimal. Whole procedure in 35 min.
C2 task start should reflect RL start gate time. (Same for max start alt, RL weather, cloud base etc etc).

Possible future improvements
As condor-club is showing alt and start speed could there be max start speed policy + penalty points if exceeded.
Same with max. wing loading - c-c could check initial ballast (for given glider) in submitted ftr.
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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by wickid » Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:05 am

Where is the 07:00 UTC server? There is nothing in the serverlists?
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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by Jarmo K » Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:11 am

Waiting & refreshing server list continuously as well :(
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Re: FAI Sailplane Grand Prix - Qualifying - Varese ITALY 2021

Post by EDB » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:45 pm

@Pit_R » 2021 Jun 26 Sat 18:07

For me 15 minutes to prepare is not enough. I'm a slow reader... :? And my tablet from 2012 is extremely slow. Currently I have to disable TeamSpeak before joining the flight to avoid someone asking me questions because I have no time for those questions. For me the fun is already a bit gone that way... The preparation, also discussing with buddies, is part of the fun. I remember the days in the SkayBattleCup were we could do some aerobatics and flying each other out of the sky before the start. It's gone... no time to waist... The only thing left is crashing into each other at the finish...
30 minutes join-time is what used to be the norm and is used in virtual soaring competitions. 20 minutes in CWC was always just in time when hurrying up. Always missing something. If someone else prefers to use only 15 minutes he can join the server later if there is enough room.

The only discussion that always came up is that there are people that already will enter flight 1 minute after joining the server and then fly the first leg end as such had an advantage. If you don't let those people into the air yet and if you can't save the RandSeed at that waiting time, then no one has an advantage. Everyone in the air at the same time. And enough time for everyone to prepare...

The discussion of first leg explorers is a non discussion if you don't use "Randomize weather on each flight" if you use different time slot, because the later timeslots can fly the task several times offline before they fly it online and they will exactly know were the good thermals will be... They will know way more then the first leg explorers in the first timeslot..!

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