Low & Slow

[janjansen]

This post is starting to going downhill in the wrong direction, IMHO.

A discussion on the need for start window speed limits like real life competitions have, or VNE penalties, is indeed a little OT, but its worth having and probably deserves its own thread. OTOH specific issues that arise when setting short tasks seems entirely appropriate in a thread about a competition that aims to deliver just that?

I just expressed my opinion and wishes with no bad intentions, and Pit_R just tried to be helpful, I think.

Sure, I think so too, I have no problem with him, and his solution to avoid VNE after task start works fine on 2-3 hour thermal tasks. But what he doesnt or didnt seem to realize is that with ~1 hour tasks its a very different problem; then you either quickly end up with a disproportionate time spent on fg, or if McCready its only a bit higher, especially if you add in wind, mountains or high terrain, then McCready speeds in flight can again quickly approach or even exceed VNE.

There are things that do help, like rising terrain, high altitude finishes, low cloud bases, PZs, areas with little or no thermals etc, but especially if you try to make them a little varied, then there is no simple solution and it requires a fair bit of effort to make such tasks.

So if anyone wants to be actually helpful, feel free to submit task proposals.

[UrosM]

Some nice AAT maybe?

[janjansen]

Not sure yet. Maybe one as an experiment, but Im not the biggest fan of AATs. I understand why they where created, but I think they have turned in to a math quiz.

AATs make most sense when you have cloud streets, changing weather and long start windows (which can cause very different conditions near TPs for pilots starting at different times). Condor doesnt really do Cu streeting well yet, weather is pretty static in time, there are no cold fronts or rain showers blocking a path at times, and in my competitions start windows are short. AATs where invented to give people fair chances despite locally changing weather conditions, but in condor and particularly in my competitions, thats already the case, everyone pretty much encounters the same weather.

So rather then leveling the playing field, I fear AATs just adds complexity for no obvious reason, and favors users who can use xcsoar. Its useful for RL competition gliders to practice AATs, but within condor it currently doesnt make much sense IMO.

[Pit_R]

"Assigned Area tasks are intended to allow competitors the opportunity to make the best use of soaring conditions and should be set only when good uniform soaring conditions are forecast across the whole task area to avoid the results being unduly influenced by luck."

So exactly such static weather as we have in C.

"The AAT task is a valuable test of skill for pilots in uniform conditions but care should be taken to ensure that the design is carefully thought out and limits the degree of chance that can be created with the setting of this type of task. AATs can be a good option when there is a large variation in glider handicaps and can also make a welcome change from fixed course tasks."

"BGA Competition Organisers’ Guide", April 2015 ©British Gliding Association 2015 Page 26 of 79
http://bicestergliding.com/Competitions ... rg2015.pdf

IMHO AATs are very good option for C, as all pilots - skilled or not, are flying +- same time, let's say 1h 45 min (depends on terrain, conditions etc). So there are no situations when good pilot finishing speed task in, let's say 1h 23 min, while noob fighting 2h 42 min.
PDA is worth to have during such tasks, but it is doable with very good results also without.

Rgrds

[janjansen]

That quote doesnt really contradict my point:

should be set only when good uniform soaring conditions are forecast across the whole task area

The above might be true in most condor flat land tasks, but it is rarely if ever the case in my tasks (or any mountain task). If anything I go out of my way to avoid it and try to mix high and low ridges, mountains, wave areas, flatlands and thermal dead zones whenever I can or however much i can in relatively short tasks.

What that document says is that AATs are no good if you put one task area in a good place and another in a much worse spot especially when as a pilot you may not be able to predict which is the good one. But the main point of AATs is allowing pilots to optimise their flying within an assigned area . Rather than being restricted to a fixed TP, they are able to take advantage of a cumulus street to go a little further, or deviate to avoid a rain shower or a big blue hole. Those showers and streets and blue holes come and go and the timing thereoff is down to luck whether or not that works for you or against you when the TP is fixed. Thats a problem AATs solve, but in condor this sort of variability is almost non existent. If you where to fly any task an hour or two hours later, the ideal track would be almost identical. This isnt the case IRL.
.

Your last point about flight times is well taken though, I had not considered that. That is an advantage.

[UrosM]

Nice task tonight. And by the my mistake, getting too low, it was really low and slow on last 20 km. But still great one.

[Bre901]

Nice task indeed, but 22:30 CET is probably too late for me.

[janjansen]

22:30 is the late session, there is always a 19:30 session the day before .

Just a headsup; this evening and tomorrow we fly on Matamata landscape (northern New Zealand island).
You can download it from CC or from here:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=18474&hilit=matamata

That link also includes two optional texture patches which are not on CC yet.

EDB just uploaded a nice condor map for that scenery here:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18845#p162845

XCsoar map can be downloaded here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zLLVP ... 4awnkZFYpm

[janjansen]

I planned the early session of L&S to be after TchinTchin, but it may be a little too short after TchinTchin, especially for those people who want to eat inbetween.

What would you all think if I moved the early timeslot from 19:30 to 20:30 CET? Since these are generally short races, they still end at a reasonable time.

I also see AGO launched a new competition which clashes with the Friday early session, starting 15min before L&S. That is unfortunate, especially since there is nothing at that hour on Saturdays. Assuming Ago doesnt change his timetable, how about we swap friday and saturday, so Friday would be a late 22:30 CET session (joinable if you mess up Sell am see) and Saturday an early session, presumably 20:30 CET?

[Bre901]

I planned the early session of L&S to be after TchinTchin, but it may be a little too short after TchinTchin, especially for those people who want to eat inbetween.

What would you all think if I moved the early timeslot from 19:30 to 20:30 CET? Since these are generally short races, they still end at a reasonable time.

I support that

[UrosM]

I like 20:30 CET more than 19:30 CET, which was too early for me.

FRI/SAT swap is also OK with me.

And, as I said before, three races per week is a little too much, specially if someone like to fly some other races too, but can't afford to fly two or three races per day. Maybe to consider for future reference.

[janjansen]

Ive moved the early session to 20:30 CET, this will apply for this evenings race ( but I may start a no task server at the usual hour just to inform people not reading forums or CC messages).
Instead of swapping fri and sat, Ive provisionally moved friday session to saturday 20:30 CET and saturday late session to sunday late. Will wait for more feedback before making that final.

As for 3 sessions per week; I agree, but you only need to fly 2 to score full points. More importantly, there is nothing else in the late time slot which is what kickstarted all this, and I wanted to give those people more than 1 or 2 opportunities per week. I may come up with an alternative solution for a next iteration.

[blacksun]

The links to the matamata scenery are no longer working so download from condor club. Hope they are the same. Looking forward to joining everyone in the later flight on Thursday.

[janjansen]

Indeed, Jan removed it from his google drive, you will need to get it from condor club.

One more thing;
Saving the task was disabled on the server. I did this to avoid someone joining the early session, saving the flight plan, then practicing for 24hr with thermal helpers enabled, and then flying the late session. What I forgot is xcsoar users who couldnt convert the task.

Going for forward I will either provide an xcsoar flight plan, or reenable the fpl saving. its enabled for late session anyway as there is no advantage to be had there.

[UrosM]

If you join and then disconnect you already have fpl. Won't tell here where to look.

So disabling save fpl dont solve anything. That is a destiny of hosting same race on different days.