Suggestion for dual flights

[Vertigo]

I think it may be doable, but I see a number of potential edge cases that would need to be handled. Like, its possible the pilot declaring me as co-pilot does it without my knowledge or consent, it should not prevent me from flying solo. otoh, I also should not be allowed to fly solo (offline, disconnect before line open) and after the race see who did best.

And of course, this wouldnt prevent me from scoring well a day when I cant fly if I can talk/bribe JJJ in to declaring me as copilot.

[wickid]

You can declare, but it would only be accepted after the crosscheck. Same as CC-rating is only issued after server result cross check.

So, PIC declares P2 when uploading FTR. After upload window X-check is performed. If it passes P2 is displayed in the results.

[Vertigo]

I am not sure what the server results show if we join together, and I disconnect early, before even crossing the line (and potentially fly the same task offline/solo). If it shows both pilots that joined together, its a problem. If it only shows the "main" pilot that finishes, this is also a bit of a problem if I actually got disconnected mid flight.

Anyway, something along those lines may be an interim solution to enable double seat competitions with caveats, but it doesnt sound like a robust solution.

[havet865]

Hi everyone,

A few extracts taken from the Sc3a of the FAI/IGC on the subject below. Then a recap and some open questions for us.
I think plenty of people discussed this for ages before us, so we might want to have a look.

The FAI Sporting Code outlines the rules for 20-meter class (or two-seater class) gliding competitions. Multi-seat gliders must be flown dual, with both pilots on board being listed in the results. The maximum takeoff mass for the 20-meter multi-seat class is 800 kg.

Handicapping may be used in the 20-meter multi-seat class in Continental Gliding Championships, but not in World Gliding Championships. If used, the handicaps must be taken from the valid IGC Handicap list or any other list approved by the IGC Bureau for the specific Championships.

The scoring system for the 20-meter multi-seat class is the same as for the other classes. Each competitor is given a daily score based on their performance on each Championship Day. The score is calculated based on the competitor's Marking Distance and Marking Time. The competitor's Handicap is also taken into account.

As usual, the winner of the 20-meter multi-seat class is the pilot with the highest total score, obtained by adding the pilot's points for each Championship Day. In case of a tie, the tie is broken by comparing the number of daily first placings, then daily second placings, etc., until the tie is broken.

Should we follow these rules for virtual gliding? Why or why not?
What advantages and disadvantages might there be to adopting a different set of rules specifically tailored to virtual gliding?

From what you have said, I would like to say the following:

It is not only about the physical steering. Also the decisions ect. You get sort of the same with team flying or following. But then you can't see the instruments of the other pilot. So IMHO twoseater competitions should not be CC-rated. I have no objection to the ranking showing who the copilot was. And that can be done without a FTR format change. Only needs a box when uploading the FTR to declare the P2.

I agree with Wiek that Two-Seater contests should not be in CC-rating until there are rules we do agree on, in the community.
As per IGC rules, it would be nice to have the second pilot's name shown in the FTR and in the results.

A two-seater glider functions as a team and should be scored as one. I strongly advise against assigning separate scores to each crew member for several reasons outlined earlier, including CC-Rating implications and potential disconnections or server issues.

In real-life competitions, only the Pilot in Command (PIC) is scored in the IGC ranking. Otherwise, a country could strategically pair its two highest-ranked pilots, have them compete together, and effectively boost both their rankings for the same performance and result. This would also give certain nations an advantage in the overall ranking, which holds financial significance for some federations, as government funding can be tied to these standings; but that’s a whole other debate.

If I recall correctly, a country's ranking is based on the top five pilots, which is why federations always aim to have their best ranked competitors in the WGC/Continentals: to climb higher in the list.

Ive suggested before the FTR recording which pilot has control when/how much, so competition organizers could require both pilots flying x% of the time/distance in order to score both, or even penalizing if one pilot flies the vast majority of the task and the other is just a sand bag. If or when we have that, Thierry could make some similar rules for Cc rating, like rating which ever pilot flew most of the task, or something.

With all due respect, this completely misses the essence of flying a two-seater: it's about sharing the cockpit, exchanging ideas, and collaborating on performance. Some fly two-seaters for cross-country training (even in competitions), others for pure enjoyment, just look at the ASK13 Challenge in St Crépin (spoiler: we might organize something in September!). The beauty of a two-seater is the freedom to hand over the controls when you're tired or not in the right mindset to perform.

Two-seater flying is an entirely different philosophy from pure racing (which we all love). Do we really want to impose rigid rules like requiring each pilot to fly at least 45% of the time? Instead, we should take a step back and consider the true advantages and challenges of two-seater flying—especially in Virtual Gliding. Our goal should be to allow as much flexibility as possible without disrupting a ranking and scoring system that already works well, just to satisfy a few CC-rating fanatics. Who cares about CC-rating apart from the Top 200? Most of us are here to have fun and learn from others. Having a full event with the same crew every race, with one score for the PIC, as in real life: OK for CC-rating. Otherwise, it's a no for me. As long as we can't control those things, it cannot work.

In all my experience, I’ve never seen a 20 Metre WGC where both pilots had identical skills and experience. Each crew balances their strengths; some excel in climbing, others in transitions. Two-seater competition is about finding the right partnership where 1 + 1 = 3.

What are your thoughts? What is the right balance?

Antoine

[arneh]

Doubt it will work in Condor to require both pilots to participate together for every race. Few pilots can make every race by themselves, requiring that both pilots are available all the same days will just make it impossible.

In real-life competitions, only the Pilot in Command (PIC) is scored in the IGC ranking.

For real life IGC ranking, it's the pilot with the highest IGC rating that get's the IGC ranking points. So you can not increase your IGC ranking by flying with Kawa, even if you're PIC

But don't want to use this for CCrating. It would just risk dropping the rating of the best pilot. As a big difference is that for ccRating every race counts, while for IGC rating only the each pilot's best 2 contests are used.

[Vertigo]

Do we really want to impose rigid rules like requiring each pilot to fly at least 45% of the time? I

No, and certainly not 45%, but in condor, especially in races that are not dedicated 2 seat competitions with fixed teams (which is not very achievable, especially for multiday competitions), we can not obligate dual seaters to be flown by 2 pilots. We have tchintchin races every day, regularly using 20m dual seater, its extraordinarily rare to see 2 pilots in them. I dont expect that to be any different in CWC on days where 20m is flown, because whats the incentive for someone like WRW to take on another pilot, and more to the point, if he does take one on, whats his incentive to hand over control ? There is none. So the lesser pilot, if there even is one, will become a passive observer, scoring points for doing nothing.

If you do a fixed team/dedicated 20m competition, I wouldnt enforce/penalize/promote any control sharing, but for typical competitions and daily races, I would like the option to give the better pilot an incentive to have a second pilot, either one that is similarly skilled to himself, or if he is not, an incentivize to coach him, rather than everyone flying alone or looking for a proverbial sandbag (should you force them to take on a second pilot).

Two-seater competition is about finding the right partnership where 1 + 1 = 3.

95% of two seat flights will not happen in a dedicated fixed team/two seat competition. I think it would be nice if not nearly all of those where flown solo, but instead actually encouraged teamwork and/or skill transfer. Giving some sort of bonus to 2 pilot teams sharing stick time is one way to get there. Simulators have their weaknesses, there are things we cant do in the sim, but the opposite is also true, it offers opportunities to do things we cant do IRL. I see this as one.

[havet865]

Doubt it will work in Condor to require both pilots to participate together for every race. Few pilots can make every race by themselves, requiring that both pilots are available all the same days will just make it impossible.

In real-life competitions, only the Pilot in Command (PIC) is scored in the IGC ranking.

For real life IGC ranking, it's the pilot with the highest IGC rating that get's the IGC ranking points. So you can not increase your IGC ranking by flying with Kawa, even if you're PIC

But don't want to use this for CCrating. It would just risk dropping the rating of the best pilot. As a big difference is that for ccRating every race counts, while for IGC rating only the each pilot's best 2 contests are used.

Thanks for correcting me Arne!
Agree with what you are saying as well.

The only way to make it work like in real life is to apply the same rules and to have the same crew everyday, on a small event (2 to 4 races). Otherwise, it would be too much pressure to attend each race etc... no easy solution here.

Do we really want to impose rigid rules like requiring each pilot to fly at least 45% of the time? I

No, and certainly not 45%, but in condor, especially in races that are not dedicated 2 seat competitions with fixed teams (which is not very achievable, especially for multiday competitions), we can not obligate dual seaters to be flown by 2 pilots. We have tchintchin races every day, regularly using 20m dual seater, its extraordinarily rare to see 2 pilots in them. I dont expect that to be any different in CWC on days where 20m is flown, because whats the incentive for someone like WRW to take on another pilot, and more to the point, if he does take one on, whats his incentive to hand over control ? There is none. So the lesser pilot, if there even is one, will become a passive observer, scoring points for doing nothing.

If you do a fixed team/dedicated 20m competition, I wouldnt enforce/penalize/promote any control sharing, but for typical competitions and daily races, I would like the option to give the better pilot an incentive to have a second pilot, either one that is similarly skilled to himself, or if he is not, an incentivize to coach him, rather than everyone flying alone or looking for a proverbial sandbag (should you force them to take on a second pilot).

I disagree here, tchintchin races are very 'solo' & competitive flights oriented. You go to tchintchin because you want to fly and have fun, not because you want to share the cockpit with someone (well, for now that is my feeling).

On top of that, only a handful of us actually know how to set up the sound and commands properly for two-seaters. That's why we will do an event around multicrew soon, to allow everyone to discover this feature, and to learn which settings are necessary to make it work etc...

Unless you organize something around the two-seater experience, I don't see any advantage for anyone, especially the Top 200, to fly two-seaters... even more if you wanna apply CC-rating.

[Vertigo]

Unless you organize something around the two-seater experience, I don't see any advantage for anyone, especially the Top 200, to fly two-seaters...

Thats because currently there isnt any. If I had my way, in some races you wouldnt be able to select a non flying "AI" pilot, so if you fly solo, your wingloading would be lower, just like it would be IRL. If you want max wingloading, find yourself a human copilot and fly as a team. Its not clear to me if that is a thing you actually dislike or wanted to promote

[witor]

That is why I suggest not to allow CC-rating on twoseater competitions.

Totally agree only single seater races should be CC rated.

[havet865]

That is why I suggest not to allow CC-rating on twoseater competitions.

Totally agree only single seater races should be CC rated.

Unless you organize a short event, as described above, with the same pair of pilots sharing the same cockpit for x Races.
But otherwise, I don't see it working.

Unless you organize something around the two-seater experience, I don't see any advantage for anyone, especially the Top 200, to fly two-seaters...

Thats because currently there isnt any. If I had my way, in some races you wouldnt be able to select a non flying "AI" pilot, so if you fly solo, your wingloading would be lower, just like it would be IRL. If you want max wingloading, find yourself a human copilot and fly as a team. Its not clear to me if that is a thing you actually dislike or wanted to promote

Hum I think that you can add sandbags or anything else to reach 800kg, isn't it?
But in Europe, you don't need 800kg anyway so...

Maybe to have your proposal in Condor for competitions would work, but I think Condor.Club can just set a score to zero if the task is flown by one pilot instead of two.. but do we want to go this far? Dunno

[Vertigo]

Unless you organize a short event, as described above, with the same pair of pilots sharing the same cockpit for x Races.

Sure, but that sounds impractical. Its rare enough to have 1 pilot being able to fly all or most races, requiring a fixed team of 2 is going to be of very limited appeal.

Hum I think that you can add sandbags or anything else to reach 800kg, isn't it?

Your own pasted text says otherwise, that 20m multiseat class must be flown with 2 pilots.

I think Condor.Club can just set a score to zero if the task is flown by one pilot instead of two.. but do we want to go this far?

No, which is why I suggested something very different than scoring zero...

[wickid]

Another thing:

The FAI Sporting Code outlines the rules for 20-meter class (or two-seater class) gliding competitions. Multi-seat gliders must be flown dual, with both pilots on board being listed in the results. The maximum takeoff mass for the 20-meter multi-seat class is 800 kg.

Handicapping may be used in the 20-meter multi-seat class in Continental Gliding Championships, but not in World Gliding Championships. If used, the handicaps must be taken from the valid IGC Handicap list or any other list approved by the IGC Bureau for the specific Championships.

Currently we have:

DuoDiscus: 750 kg, Handicap 113 or 1.01
DuoDiscusFES: 750 kg, Handicap 113 or 1.01
Arcus: 750 kg, Handicap 120 or 1.04
ASG32Mi: 850 kg, Handicap 120 or 1.05

You can restrict the wingloading to 51 kg/m^2. That gives the ASG32Mi 800 kg, and it is still possible to fly with 2 pilots. Restricting it to 48 kg/m^2 gets them all to 750 kg, but the ASG32Mi can't be flown with 2 pilots anymore as it weighs 774 kg with 2 pilots.

Condor automatically applies DMSt index to 20 meter class. And Condor-Club automatically applies IGC handicap. Especially with the IGC handicap the ASG32Mi is, I think, the obvious choice when it is at 850 or 800 kg.

Something to think about in a possible event.

[Vertigo]

About CC rating; if or when dual piloted competition flying becomes possible and popular, why not have a separate CC rating for teams?

[RVB]

For CC rating you could also apply the IGC-rules.

[havet865]

Currently we have:

DuoDiscus: 750 kg, Handicap 113 or 1.01
DuoDiscusFES: 750 kg, Handicap 113 or 1.01
Arcus: 750 kg, Handicap 120 or 1.04
ASG32Mi: 850 kg, Handicap 120 or 1.05

You can restrict the wingloading to 51 kg/m^2. That gives the ASG32Mi 800 kg, and it is still possible to fly with 2 pilots. Restricting it to 48 kg/m^2 gets them all to 750 kg, but the ASG32Mi can't be flown with 2 pilots anymore as it weighs 774 kg with 2 pilots.

Condor automatically applies DMSt index to 20 meter class. And Condor-Club automatically applies IGC handicap. Especially with the IGC handicap the ASG32Mi is, I think, the obvious choice when it is at 850 or 800 kg.

Something to think about in a possible event.

Very good synthesis, thanks a lot Wiek!

Your own pasted text says otherwise, that 20m multiseat class must be flown with 2 pilots.

True for FAI rules indeed, but that’s not the case in many regional and national competitions around the world due to the challenges of flying a two-seater.

France actually changed its rules to make it mandatory for two-seater gliders to have two pilots in the cockpit every day because too many owners were flying solo or using sandbags, ultimately defeating the purpose of flying a two-seater.

I will take the time to read again your proposals tomorrow Vertigo.