Suggestion for dual flights

[nicnac211]

Hello,
Currently, when two pilots fly dual (two seater) only the "lead" pilot's FTR is valid for scoring purposes. The "second" pilot's FTR is invalid (according to condor club). This makes flying and scoring dual impossible.

If you could please resolve the second pilot's FTR to be able to make valid submissions to condor club I think you would see an uptick in dual flights.

Flying dual is very cool and amazingly useful but at the moment no one is flying it. I hope that this can be updated and there is a FAI dual flight sometime this year.

[wickid]

Hello,
Currently, when two pilots fly dual (two seater) only the "lead" pilot's FTR is valid for scoring purposes. The "second" pilot's FTR is invalid (according to condor club). This makes flying and scoring dual impossible.

If you could please resolve the second pilot's FTR to be able to make valid submissions to condor club I think you would see an uptick in dual flights.

Flying dual is very cool and amazingly useful but at the moment no one is flying it. I hope that this can be updated and there is a FAI dual flight sometime this year.

It is not possible to make the second pilot have a valid FTR. The second pilot can disconnect at any point during the flight. He can stop flying or fly a completely different route. This results in two different flight tracks and thus two different scores. That is why only the pilot in command has a valid flighttrack file. In a twoseater competition both pilots should be scored the same, with the FTR of the pilot in command. I don't know if Condor Club has implemented this yet.

[nicnac211]

Hello,
Currently, when two pilots fly dual (two seater) only the "lead" pilot's FTR is valid for scoring purposes. The "second" pilot's FTR is invalid (according to condor club). This makes flying and scoring dual impossible.

If you could please resolve the second pilot's FTR to be able to make valid submissions to condor club I think you would see an uptick in dual flights.

Flying dual is very cool and amazingly useful but at the moment no one is flying it. I hope that this can be updated and there is a FAI dual flight sometime this year.

It is not possible to make the second pilot have a valid FTR. The second pilot can disconnect at any point during the flight. He can stop flying or fly a completely different route. This results in two different flight tracks and thus two different scores. That is why only the pilot in command has a valid flighttrack file. In a twoseater competition both pilots should be scored the same, with the FTR of the pilot in command. I don't know if Condor Club has implemented this yet.

You might want to get ahold of BOD1 then because he thinks its not possible to score dual flights until condor the game adjusts the ftr.
If you guys could get together and talk it would be great.

[BOD1]

I do NOT know (from main pilot's FTR) who is the second pilot. And even if I did know him, what difference would it make to the task's scores?
Moreover, ccRating is becoming impossible! Rating is done on an individual level (comparing the “strength” of 2 people), not as a team.

[6266]

You can fly two seater on Vintage Series 24, scoring is for the team, only the main pilot uploads the igc file and writes the CN of the copilot in the upload dialog. If the flight is done with a twoseater and fixed ballast, the flight is accepted.

If it's neccessary to validate the second pilot, I will find a solution, but until now it's good enough with this simple way.

I guess it's not what you are looking for, but we can ...

[Vertigo]

I do NOT know (from main pilot's FTR) who is the second pilot.

This should be added to the FTR then.

And even if I did know him, what difference would it make to the task's scores?

Most logical would be to give both pilots the same score for that race.
For CC rating, only consider "pilot in command".

[wickid]

I do NOT know (from main pilot's FTR) who is the second pilot. And even if I did know him, what difference would it make to the task's scores?
Moreover, ccRating is becoming impossible! Rating is done on an individual level (comparing the “strength” of 2 people), not as a team.

Another reason why it doesn't work then. .

The only option would be if Thierry implements a "declare your co-pilot" option when uploading and both names appear in the table. But only the PIC gets CC-rated and scored as he does now. Maybe only have this option for non CC-rated competitions.

[wickid]

Most logical would be to give both pilots the same score for that race.
For CC rating, only consider "pilot in command".

Bad idea now that I think about it. A "bad" pilot can get good ratings by being PIC and letting a "good" pilot fly most of the race. That would make CC-rating kinda useless.

This is already a possibility right now. That is why I suggest not to allow CC-rating on twoseater competitions.

[Vertigo]

Ive suggested before the FTR recording which pilot has control when/how much, so competition organizers could require both pilots flying x% of the time/distance in order to score both, or even penalizing if one pilot flies the vast majority of the task and the other is just a sand bag. If or when we have that, Thierry could make some similar rules for Cc rating, like rating which ever pilot flew most of the task, or something.

[6266]

Bad idea now that I think about it. A "bad" pilot can get good ratings by being PIC and letting a "good" pilot fly most of the race. That would make CC-rating kinda useless.

That is possible today too, if a "good" pilot flies with the CN of a "bad" pilot. You never know who is the one at the stick ...

[wickid]

Ive suggested before the FTR recording which pilot has control when/how much, so competition organizers could require both pilots flying x% of the time/distance in order to score both, or even penalizing if one pilot flies the vast majority of the task and the other is just a sand bag. If or when we have that, Thierry could make some similar rules for Cc rating, like rating which ever pilot flew most of the task, or something.

It is not only about the physical steering. Also the decisions ect. You get sort of the same with team flying or following. But then you can't see the instruments of the other pilot. So IMHO twoseater competitions should not be CC-rated. I have no objection to the ranking showing who the copilot was. And that can be done without a FTR format change. Only needs a box when uploading the FTR to declare the P2.

[Vertigo]

I think you are overthinking this. I can also live stream my flight and have JJJ whisper in my ear. Its still not gonna make me win much though, but its essentially the same thing. Besides, good pilots coaching lesser gods, I can only see that as a good thing we should encourage. It would be a shame if we let CC ratings get in the way of actually benefiting from dual pilot and being able to learn from better pilots.

[wickid]

I think you are overthinking this. I can also live stream my flight and have JJJ whisper in my ear. Its still not gonna make me win much though, but its essentially the same thing. Besides, good pilots coaching lesser gods, I can only see that as a good thing we should encourage. It would be a shame if we let CC ratings get in the way of actually benefiting from dual pilot and learning from better pilots.

A "declare co-pilot" option when uploading would do that wouldn't it? That is how it is done on Weglide and OLC in real life too. We don't need a valid FTR from the copilot (for the reasons I pointed out above this is not possible). And it can be implemented now, without FTR format change.

[Vertigo]

Hmm.. but then what do you do if the declared co-pilot doesnt actually fly in double, or worse, submits his own (solo) result? It might be a workable workaround for the time being, but I think including both pilots in the FTR, and ideally logging pilot in control, is a much better and more flexible long term solution.

[wickid]

Hmm.. but then what do you do if the declared co-pilot doesnt actually fly in double, or worse, submits his own (solo) result? It might be a workable workaround for the time being, but I think including both pilots in the FTR, and ideally logging pilot in control, is a much better and more flexible long term solution.

Cross check with server race results. If DShelper is used they get uploaded to the server.