Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

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6266
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by 6266 » Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:22 am

A little bit of mathematics:

If autopilot only gives a lower sink rate of 1 cm/sec and you use it 60 minutes, you lose 36 m less height in the whole flight (60 min x 60 = 3600 seconds = 3600 cm = 36 m). With an average climbrate of 2 m/s you win 18 seconds.That can be a different between rank 1 and 5.

Of course not for me, finishing 30 min later or 29:42 makes no difference, but in the tops it is. And if there is this advantage, all top pilots are forced to use it.
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by arneh » Wed Nov 09, 2022 1:09 pm

I like to consider myself a top pilot, currently ranked number 10 according to condor-club's ccRating, but have also been number 1 some years ago (https://www.condor.club/comp/userrating/0/?id=7182). Personally I don't use autopilot, except for the occasional toilet break. So it's certainly possible to get good results without using autopilot.

Don't know if it gives an advantage to use it, as I never really tried. But please don't force me to fly whole contests without going to the toilet! My bladder won't be able to take it. I will then prefer to have a small disadvantage to those who fly on autopilot, if that is the case.

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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by Paul_UK » Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:24 pm

We need a questionnaire setup.

What's the longest you can last without visiting the toilet? :mrgreen:

The tasks hosted by the group I fly with are generally no longer than 1.75 hours with the quicker pilots finishing in 1.5 hours. For 3 hour plus long tasks though I agree autopilot has its uses!
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by 6266 » Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:40 pm

Sorry, I have to continue fighting for the weakest ...

There are for sure people with a need for the autopilot, handicap, illness and age are some possible reasons. To prohibit autopilot means to exclude such people from the fun. If we only exclude one we have done a very bad job.


Not to give an advantage with autopilot is the task to do. It's the same with Autorudder, it helps if you don't have pedals or don't have the possibility to use them. So you can fly nevertheless, but there is no advantage, because flying with pedals gives a better performance in my opinion. Autopilot should be the same
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by cbrunschen » Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:47 pm

6266 wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:40 pm
Sorry, I have to continue fighting for the weakest ...
You're not, though – you're fighting against people having options and being allowed to choose certain things that you don't like.
6266 wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:40 pm
There are for sure people with a need for the autopilot, handicap, illness and age are some possible reasons. To prohibit autopilot means to exclude such people from the fun. If we only exclude one we have done a very bad job.
Let me paraphrase that, but apply it to something else that already exists in Condor:

"There are for sure people with a need for thermal helpers, lack of practice time, lack of skill are some possible reasons. To prohibit thermal helpers means to exclude such people from the fun."

Reality isn't completely fair, unfortunately. But 'fairness' or 'maximum inclusion' are not the only criterion by which things must always and only ever be judged. Much like 'realism' is not the one and only criterion – if it was, then the autopilot would never have existed in the first place.

Giving people options allows people to trade off different things against each other, depending on context, depending on the needs and wants of those involved in a particular flight or competition.

If in a particular group of people who are planning to fly a task together, it is known that none of those people need the autopilot but would only use it for a competitive advantage, then why would you forbid those people from being able to enforce a rule against using the autopilot? Nobody in this scenario is actually being excluded!

Plus of course, you can always fly your tasks and competitions with the autopilot fully permitted for everyone.

The suggestion here is entirely about giving people options. Nobody is suggesting that the autopilot should go away – just, much like with prohibiting cloud flying for example, having the option to either allow it or not on a particular task.
6266 wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:40 pm
Not to give an advantage with autopilot is the task to do.
That might be a different possibility – maybe allow the task setter to specify some amount of 'noise' or 'jitter' to be added to the autopilot-provided control inputs perhaps, so that the glider does not in fact fly 'perfectly' when under the autopilot's control; still maintaining the general speed and heading, but not as 'perfectly' as it currently does? But that would likely be even more difficult to implement – and of course doesn't really fulfil all of the same purpose. Limiting or completely disabling the use of the autopilot also forces the competitors to be fully and completely committed to being in the task for the whole time and paying full attention to it, and not being able to wander off to do other things. Much like one has to be when flying a real glider ...
6266 wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:40 pm
It's the same with Autorudder, it helps if you don't have pedals or don't have the possibility to use them. So you can fly nevertheless, but there is no advantage, because flying with pedals gives a better performance in my opinion. Autopilot should be the same
Actually, it probably would be a good idea to also be able to disable or add penalty point the use of auto-rudder functionality on a task – for those tasks where the competitors are aiming for a display of maximum individual skill and glider control in all regards.

I personally almost always fly with auto-rudder enabled, because I don't have a permanent seat setup, and thus I just use a joystick (with force feedback, though). But, if someone wanted to run a more realistic competition, well then I would simply have to accept that restriction - and either learn how to use the stick-twist; get my rudder pedals out of their corner and set them up for that particular flight; or accept that that particular competition is simply not for me!

So I agree here: the auto-rudder functionality is also a candidate to be possible to disable or give penalty points for in NOTAMs.

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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by 6266 » Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:01 pm

Sorry, you didn't got my point
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by AlexH » Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:06 pm

What would be interesting to add percentage of the flight the Autopilot has been used in the flight track log.

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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by Cheymike » Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:35 pm

Wow...did NOT think I'd weigh in on this but now feel I have to. I am a medically retired 70 year old glider pilot. Doctors won't clear me to fly in r/l anymore. When I last did fly (back in my 40s) I was a pretty solid pilot. Bronze/Silver/Gold/2 Diamonds.
At that time, gliders had these little devices in them that aren't real convenient in my living room, called PEE TUBES! Sorry but I'm not building a pee tube and collection container in my house for Condor.
I'm on daily diuretics that cause me to have to pee about every 40 minutes or so. So am I to be excluded from your flights because you can't abide people using autopilot? If you feel that way, then :lol: so sorry for you. Your description of autopilot is also completely incorrect. In MOST cases, yes, it will keep you straight and level FOR A WHILE. But do it often, sometimes multiple times during a flight, and you will find yourself returning to a vastly different situation than you left. You've turned. You've sped up. You've slowed down. You've fluttered.
Meh.... 'nuff said.
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by JBlyth » Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:49 am

I'm most interested in reading all these replies. Please keep it up.

I would be VERY INTERESTED in Condor Pilot's views on if they think using the Autopilot during flights gives a competitive advantage, as many think seems to be the case, or not.

If so, what facet of Condor gives the perceived advantage? As an example, I have had quite a number of pilots suggest that the change in trim/attitude when engaging autopilot produces less "drag".

I do appreciate that many pilots NEED the autopilot to be able to fly in comfort. I wouldn't wish those people to be disadvantaged in any way.

Therefore, I am interested in discovering if there really is a competitive advantage in the Autopilot's frequent/constant use. If that assumption is correct, it's only then that we need to think about any fixes or possible penalties for extended use.

By the way, I hadn't realised it, but when flying on Autopilot while present at the controls, direction can always be corrected with the rudder control....

Many thanks,
John - the originator of this post. 😇

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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by cbrunschen » Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:57 am

The point here is that Condor is used for many different purposes.

Fun solo flying in an area you can't visit; for flying in a simulation because it's difficult or impossible or prohibitively expensive for someone to do in real life; to practice flying in between being able to take actual flights in bad-weather seasons; for fun friendly social 'tasks' where the social bit is more important than the competition; but also, sometimes, for more 'serious' competition - in the direction of what people now call 'e-sports'.

For that last specific context, it makes sense to allow competition organizers to choose which aspects of gliding are the focus for their competition; and accordingly, to set the rules they want for those competitions - including how 'close to real gliding' they want to require participants to fly.
  • In a real glider, there are no 'thermal helpers' that can let pilots achieve better performance than they would without them; task setters can disable them entirely, or enable them but apply penalty points for their use.
  • In a real glider, there are no 'turnpoint helpers' that can let pilots achieve better performance than they would without them; task setters can disable them entirely, or enable them but apply penalty points for their use.
  • In a real glider, there is also no autopilot that can let pilots achieve better performance than they would without it; but currently, Condor does not allow task setters to disable them, which means that it's not possible for task setters to prevent pilots from achieving better performance through the use of the autopilot than they would be through their own piloting skills.
Condor offers things to assist pilots, and those are all good things in general: they allow pilots to learn and improve, they can allow pilots of widely varying skill levels to fly together and still achieve similar things (some perhaps with some of the assistance and some without) which can be lots of fun, social, can be a shared learning/teaching opportunity, etc.

But those are also things that a particular task setter or competition organizer may want to either enable, disable, or enable but with penalties applied, because this particular competition or task is about seeing how well people can do without that assistance. And this, too, is perfectly reasonable, and is not about trying to exclude anyone, but about simply choosing a 'realism level' of the simulated gliding experience compared to a real-world gliding one, and about being able to set competition rules.

Heck, in high-level sports, including high-level E-Sports, you almost always have to demonstrate a certain level of skill to qualify, to be allowed to compete. This excludes anyone who isn't quite that good - and absolutely excludes me, for example, from participating in FAI E-Sports events. But that doesn't mean that those qualification requirements are a bad thing - they just make it possible to run a competition at a particular level, and competing on those aspects.

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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by 6266 » Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:59 pm

I don't really disagree with you cbrunschen, options for the task setters cannot be too many, including the not yet existing option to give penalties for use of turn point helpers.

If there is the only way to prevent from getting advantages using autopilot is too prohibit it, then you exclude people in a way I don't like and I wrote about earlier. So first of all the advantage of using the autopilot should be elliminated. If that is done, no problem with an option for the task setter to prohibit it for the really e-sport events.

About excluding: It's a very different thing if you are excluded from an event because of your actual skill. You can train it, in case of qualifications you can be a part of the event in the qualification flights. And of course if there is a competition for the 20 best, you can't be with if you are nr 21 or 5000. And finally you have to accept your level.

To be excluded because of handicap, illness or age a.s.o. is something I try to fight against, because there is nothing you can do to get better.
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by arneh » Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:44 pm

6266 wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:59 pm
About excluding: It's a very different thing if you are excluded from an event because of your actual skill. You can train it, in case of qualifications you can be a part of the event in the qualification flights. And of course if there is a competition for the 20 best, you can't be with if you are nr 21 or 5000. And finally you have to accept your level.

To be excluded because of handicap, illness or age a.s.o. is something I try to fight against, because there is nothing you can do to get better.
It's all good asking for options. But these options won't be for the individual pilots, they will just have to accept the rules the contest host sets. And if this results in some pilots who can't hold their bladder for several hours being locked out of the top competitions then I think that is very unfortunate.

I myself don't think I will be able to participate if that becomes the common rule in big contests. And seeing myself as one of the top pilots who do want to participate at the top, I feel it will be wrong if I, who don't use autopilot for any other purpose, is locked out of contest because of some perceived advantage of other pilots who do use auto pilot extensively. I certainly prefer the current situation where I can compete at the top, even if there might be some tiny advantage to those who do use auto pilot. But really I doubt it's the auto pilot which makes the top pilots the best... if there is an advantage it is tiny, so better find some other way of improving your position than locking out other pilots from competitions.


If there should be some change, then better if there was introduced some small performance disadvantage when using the auto pilot too much. But please don't lock out pilots from competitions who can't be certain of holding themselves for hours.

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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by Bre901 » Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:52 pm

I am a bit puzzled by the extent of this discussion : as everyone can use the autopilot, what is the point about that ?

As mentioned in the previous posts, the autopilot does not maintain the heading, only wings level. If there is some crosswind there is no guarantee that the heading will remain constant, so you will have to adjust it, and if you only use the rudder, it will generate extra drag because of the sideslip (it can be heard).

To evaluate precisely the benefit of the autopilot, I would recommend that two pilots make a test together online with the same glider, same W/L, same CofG setting, and fly together from a given point (one with autopilot and the other one without) , preferably with a no-wind no-thermals weather setting.
arneh wrote:I certainly prefer the current situation where I can compete at the top, even if there might be some tiny advantage to those who do use auto pilot. But really I doubt it's the auto pilot which makes the top pilots the best... if there is an advantage it is tiny, so better find some other way of improving your position than locking out other pilots from competitions.
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by 6266 » Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:10 pm

Bre901 wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:52 pm
To evaluate precisely the benefit of the autopilot, I would recommend that two pilots make a test together online with the same glider, same W/L, same CofG setting, and fly together from a given point (one with autopilot and the other one without) , preferably with a no-wind no-thermals weather setting.
Good point. I think there is no advantage if you fly with autopilot constantly switched on, I guess there is one if you use it active. On, off, correction, on again and so on. That's the behaviour I have seen on some videos.

The advantage can depend on wind or turbulence (I guess), if there is nothing to correct on the cruise, there can't be an advantage using the autopilot. But with a lot of small corrections the autopilot maybe is better
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by 6266 » Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:04 am

I did the test, only one, so not really scientific, but costs time enough.

Hosted a flight from an island, maximum turbulence, 17 km/h crosswind from north, thermals set as bad as possible. Start airborn 1000 m height, Discus 2a without ballast. First flight with autopilot, speed ca. 110 - 120 km/h, heading between 270 and 330 degrees, corrected 2 or 3 times the heading to 300 degrees. Second flight same without autopilot, both flights with autorudder. Landing without gear and without changing the speed

Calculated then the igc-files, flown distances from trackpoint to trackpoint, and flown time.

With autopilot: 1409 seconds, distance 41,234 km = 105,35 km/h, average sinking 0,709 m/s
Without autopilot: 1354 seconds, distance 40,307 km = 107,17 km/h, average sinking 0,739 m/s

Looked than at the polars. 104 km/h = sinking 0,67 m/s, 107 km/h = sinking 0,7 m/s

Estimated then the sinking for the flown speed

sinking = 0,01 x speed - 0,37

Expected sinking with autopilot (105,35 km/h) = 0,6835 m/s, without (107,17 km/h) = 0,7017

Finally set the sinkings in relation

Flown sinking with autopilot 0,709 / polar sinking 0,6835 = 1,037

Flown sinking without autopilot 0,739 / polar sinking 0,7017 = 1,053

Flying with autopilot was 1,6 % closer to the polar than flying without. So advantage to the autopilot, if I didn't made a mistake in my calculation.

All documentation here, flightplan, ftr and igc files

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