Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

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Filgueiras
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by Filgueiras » Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:17 pm

6266 wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:39 am
Here the results of your igc files
Interesting, thank you.

As I thought, the difference is not important for a recreative flying, as I do.

BTW, I'd solve the difference among Condor and RL in the other way: if someday I'd have money to buy my dream glider, I'll manage to install a condor-like-2-axis-AP. And a BRS, also :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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witor
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by witor » Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:20 pm

Autopilot definitely gives advantage. If not in performance of the glider then definitely makes flying easier, which is a form of advantage.

My solution would be to add another slider to the notam tab where tasksetter could set the maximum time of autopilot used without a penalty and then penalty/minute (or second) for exceeded time of autopilot use.

In 'for fun' tasks allowed autopilot time could be set to infinity and in serious competition it would be up to the organisers.

I would also add a notam option to disallow automatic rudder, but that is a different story....

wes
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by wes » Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:51 pm

I asked a chap who live streams his flights on youtube why he used autopilot so much. The answer was so that he had more time to think about decisions (and drink tea), not because he felt it added to any flight performance. Of course the additional thinking time is an advantage and a notch down from reality, but as noted most of the time we are not flying the most realistic settings anyway (turn points, starting gates, rudders etc).
Last edited by wes on Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

witor
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by witor » Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:39 pm

The main point in a competition is that it should show who has the best 'skill' The more layers of skill is introduced the easier it is to distinguish between competitors. Flying manually without autopilot, or controlling the ruder manually instead of having computer to do it for you introduces additional layers of competition.

Of course we need autopilot for reasons we all understand and agree, but there is no reason why autopilot time could not be limited by the task setter. If we fly a 3h task 10 minutes of autopilot should be plenty to make a few toilet trips.

I have also noticed that people who actually have ruder pedals, don't use them because auto rudder performs better. Even if people do not have rudder pedals, let's be honest, most have joystick with a twisting axis that can be used to control the rudder (I flew like this for ages).

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wickid
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by wickid » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:05 pm

I cannot fly without autorudder as I am forced to fly with my mouse when I'm traveling. While not having the autopilot available would be uncomfortable on longer flights, I could live with that. No autorudder would mean I cannot fly when I'm not at home :( . Can't drag a twist joystick with me to hotels ect. And at the moment being in a hotel is usually the only time I have time available to fly.
PH-1504, KOE

witor
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by witor » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:54 pm

There are not that many people flying with a mouse... You are actually the only one I have heard of. In general I am advocating for as many options left to the competition organisers as possible. This allows a wide range of use cases for condor. Casual flyers could have everything on and just have fun but if at some point Condor develops into an official FAI esport platform, I don't think that world championship should be flown 50% on autopilot and 100% with auto ruder. Of course there are some other realism options that should also be considered (like external view which gives you superpower to see where exactly clouds are), but I have already went off topic with my mention of autoruder, so I don't want to further derail this topic.

By the way, wouldn't it be better to take some sort of a small controller (playstation type) to fly when you are on the road than using mouse? Doesn't take much space in the suitcase. Just an idea...

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JBlyth
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Re: Use of Autopilot in Competitions - is there a performance benefit gained? (Again ;-)

Post by JBlyth » Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:35 am

As the originator of this thread, I would like to thank everyone for their input. Please continue to do so.

I think the general consensus, and certainly from my own observation over many competition flights in the past two years, is that there is a competitive advantage in using Autopilot as much as possible.

I saw this again today, where two LS4s did a long final glide at the same speed and starting from the same elevation in close proximity to each other. I used the Autopilot, and I maintained a better altitude at the same speed than the other glider. I used a little trim from time to time to ensure we flew at the same speed.

I do see that when activating the Autopilot, a significant nose down change in trim occurs in the gliders I fly - is that where the "advantage" comes from, as "less" trim is required?

I think Witor's idea in having some sort of control over excessive use of the Autopilot in higher levels of competition would be sensible. Personally, I use the Autopilot to pin my LK8000 and CoTASA apps into VR, and after that only minimally. However, I must admit that I am using more and more Autopilot now, just to remain competitive with the top guys, who do seem to use it as much as possible.

I would like to see a change in Condor competitions that would at least give no competitive advantage to the extensive use of the auto pilot. Perhaps an adjustable increase in drag by 5-10% might suffice, or an adjustable limited time of use - or both?

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