Why are there thermals under all clouds in Condor?

[bluefang]

Maybe this question is better asked as" why do I never find thermals in real life under clouds here in the hot and humid USA"?

I hope this is something that can be addressed in 3.0 - and I feel like the answer is "move to Europe - where thermals are always under clouds". But alas, I am stuck here in the hot/humid/sticky south / USA (where it is not uncommon to take multiple showers per day on the 80% humid days).

But in all seriousness, I feel like Condor makes it too easy and predictable to find thermals - if you get low, just head towards a cloud, wait for sink and then find the lift nearby. Rinse and repeat.

I am sure there correct answer is "well, you just aren't looking for the right types of clouds".

In real life I find it MUCH more difficult to find lift. Where I fly, lift is usually produced by buildings or fields or parking lots - and have almost no correlation with clouds. Where I fly, the pilots that can stay up the longest are the one's that have flown around the area the longest - they know all of the secret spots based on the temperature of that specific day. There is a very strong correlation of lift and types / colors of fields, sometimes tin roof farm houses, sometimes large empty parking lots - and in the winter, the swamps even sometimes throw off lift (but never in the summer).

Am I the only one slightly bothered by the game of "fly to the nearest cloud" in Condor competitions?

[Paul_UK]

Unfortunately Condor thermals happen based on a thermal map created by the landscape creator (as far as I understand). This is basically a map that denotes what % chance there is of a thermal happening within a certain area. It is not possible to set ground triggers for thermals in Condor yet, i.e. buildings, power stations etc so it's going to be nigh on impossible to replicate your scenario.

As for your real life scenario, are the clouds you are flying under actually cumulus clouds?

There is an answer to make things much more realistic however in Condor. My suggestion would be to set thermal strength to 'weak' and variation to either 'high' or 'very high'. Set cloud base around 4000-4500feet AGL (what's the norm where you fly?). Set thermal activity to 'High', do this as you will need options! To start with set thermal width to 'normal' and 'low' variation. These settings will see you have an average XC speed of somewhere around 100kmh in STD class and better. Not every thermal will work well, to achieve that speed you will need to make wise decisions. Only climb in the weak stuff to get you high enough to move on etc, plan the best route so you have the most option etc.

If you want to really mix it up set thermal width variation to 'high'.

If you find the above too tedious change thermal strength to 'medium' however you will still find some thermals will be weak and narrow and very hard to climb in, especially in ballasted, larger span gliders.

Condor weather can be set so that it isn't always guaranteed you'll find a thermal under a cloud, plenty of landouts have happened in VSC thermal tasks usually by those who pushed too hard and didn't leave themselves enough options.

[bluefang]

As for your real life scenario, are the clouds you are flying under actually cumulus clouds?

A typical day here in the summer is 95deg F / 35 C - with 55% humidity - possibility of thunderstorms every damn afternoon - so we don't see anything other than cumulus or cumulonimbus clouds in the summer. We get a much larger variety of clouds in the winter.

Here is the forecast for this weekend...

quick-weather-forecast.png

There is an answer to make things much more realistic however in Condor. My suggestion would be to set thermal strength to 'weak' and variation to either 'high' or 'very high'. Set cloud base around 4000-4500feet AGL (what's the norm where you fly?).

I would say 4000-4500 is about average for the summer - good days up to 6000'. I usually take the actual skew-t and try to plug those values into Condor - and usually end up with conditions much better than I find in real life.

Set thermal activity to 'High', do this as you will need options! To start with set thermal width to 'normal' and 'low' variation. These settings will see you have an average XC speed of somewhere around 100kmh in STD class and better. Not every thermal will work well, to achieve that speed you will need to make wise decisions. Only climb in the weak stuff to get you high enough to move on etc, plan the best route so you have the most option etc.

If you want to really mix it up set thermal width variation to 'high'.

If you find the above too tedious change thermal strength to 'medium' however you will still find some thermals will be weak and narrow and very hard to climb in, especially in ballasted, larger span gliders.

Condor weather can be set so that it isn't always guaranteed you'll find a thermal under a cloud, plenty of landouts have happened in VSC thermal tasks usually by those who pushed too hard and didn't leave themselves enough options.

Thanks for the suggestions... I was wondering how they usually set the weather for competitions where pilots find it difficult to find lift.

No one flies with water where I fly. I am pretty sure it is not allowed by insurance on our club gliders.

[Paul_UK]

Your cloud base sounds similar to where I fly. Another thing in Condor is the lower the cloud base you set the more the thermals pop off. So if you set a 4000foot cloud base there'd be more choice of thermals than if you set a 5000foot cloud base. At least that's how it appears to be to me. In Condor the airmass in general, when flying between thermals, is very stable which doesn't represent real life so well.

Do you not use ballast in Condor?

Unsure why you do not find lift under cu where you fly in RL. Could it be the thermals cycle quickly and you're trying to enter the thermal too low and the bottom of the lift bubble is already above you?

[OXO]

If you stay high in Condor, there is a high probability of there being a thermal there. But Condor thermals die from the ground upwards, so if you are lower the chance of there being no thermal is greater,

[EDB]

There aren't many Condor landscapes with a thermal map. And if you set variation high, you will hardly notice a correct one.

The Condor Weather diagram that looks like a Skew-T isn't a Skew-T. It is AGL above the airport, not AMSL like a real Skew-T. So set your values correct. 99% of Condor pilots make this mistake. And in West Amerika the ground surface usually is very high above sea level.

Condor 2 only simulates Cu and lenties. Both of those create vertical lift. In RL you have other types too.

If you always fly shortly after a coldfront with thunderstorms, you not only have Cu's, but the soil is always very wet. Wet soil doesn't produce much heat. It dries up slower then a tarmac parking area. So correctly search for the best surface that dries up fast. Condor doesn't have a wetness factor and the thermal map has too little infuence. And high variation settings kill the thermal map.

If the Thermal map had more infuence then you wouldn't find lift above a farmhouse, because the Resolution of a tdm is only 90m/pix.

[Paul_UK]

There aren't many Condor landscapes with a thermal map. And if you set variation high, you will hardly notice a correct one.

The Condor Weather diagram that looks like a Skew-T isn't a Skew-T. It is AGL above the airport, not AMSL like a real Skew-T. So set your values correct. 99% of Condor pilots make this mistake. And in West Amerika the ground surface usually is very high above sea level.

Condor 2 only simulates Cu and lenties. Both of those create vertical lift. In RL you have other types too.

If you always fly shortly after a coldfront with thunderstorms, you not only have Cu's, but the soil is always very wet. Wet soil doesn't produce much heat. It dries up slower then a tarmac parking area. So correctly search for the best surface that dries up fast. Condor doesn't have a wetness factor and the thermal map has too little infuence. High variation settings kill the thermal map.

Interesting. I'll have to ask Andy whether the UK landscape he created has a thermal map. How does high variation on thermal strength kill the thermal map? I thought the thermal map only controls the likelihood of a thermal appearing over it (from reading on here). Does the thermal map control strength too?

I find the setting thermal strength variation to high works well on the UK landscape ensuring pilots have to keep their options open or they will end up landing out.

You mentioning about the Skew-T. This is something I'm very aware of when creating tasks. Something I think I've noticed is that say I set cloud base at 4000feet AGL if the start airport is at sea level this'll result in more thermals popping off than if cloud base is set at the same height AGL but the airport is at say 3000feet AMSL, resulting in a 7000feet AMSL cloudbase. The algorithm that is linked to amount of thermals produced compared to cloud base height seems to be linked to AMSL and not AGL. Is that correct? Unsure how this scenario works in real life as I fly in Southern UK and my airfield is only at 600feet AMSL.

[EDB]

I wasn't speaking about thermal strenght. His question is more about clouds that give no lift and were to find thermals (and where not) .

The thermal map assigns surface types and their ability to create heat. But this assumes moist is always the same. But it isn't.

A warmer surface can produce more and maybe better thermals. In Condor 2 it is mainly activity. But only to a certain percentage.

Only Uros knows if and how many the tdm adds to Thermal Strenght. Variation adds so much that you wouldn't notice it.

[Bre901]

You mentioning about the Skew-T. This is something I'm very aware of when creating tasks. Something I think I've noticed is that say I set cloud base at 4000feet AGL if the start airport is at sea level this'll result in more thermals popping off than if cloud base is set at the same height AGL but the airport is at say 3000feet AMSL, resulting in a 7000feet AMSL cloudbase. The algorithm that is linked to amount of thermals produced compared to cloud base height seems to be linked to AMSL and not AGL. Is that correct? Unsure how this scenario works in real life as I fly in Southern UK and my airfield is only at 600feet AMSL.

Another point to mention : the cloud base is AGL above the start airport, but in places where the ground is higher than the start airport, the AMSL cloud base will raise by something like half the ground elevation difference (not tested for huge altitude differences)
Example : if the airport is at 2000ft and the flight planner cloud base is at 4000ft AGL (6000 ft AMSL), the cloud base will be around 7000 ft AMSL in places where the ground is at 4000ft. (3000ft AGL)

[EDB]

Another thing RL vs Condor (2).

Do you fly in Condor for one or two hours, always between 12 and 14 o'clock? And in RL you fly from 0900 up to 1900?

Later in the day, thermals die faster. If you only fly in Condor between 1200 and 1400, you hardly feel this difference...

People (and many Condor competition's) fly with perfect weather in a very short timeframe in Condor...

[bluefang]

A lot of good points made...

My RL flying area is VERY flat. Home field is approx. 250' MSL, and is probably 150 miles from anything that resembles a "hill", 200 miles away from "mini" mountains and 100 miles from the Atlantic ocean.

I have heard it theorized by local pilots that the lack of lift underneath clouds is mostly due to the high humidity - but I haven't heard a scientific explanation - only that it is a noticed correlation - i.e., high humidity = lift from structures, not under clouds.

[dgtfer]

A wet damp low flatland... You live in Hell, Man!

[wickid]

A wet damp low flatland... You live in Hell, Man!

Are you descibing the Netherlands . Thermals are actually pretty good here.

My experience with very humid conditions is that old clouds die slower. They take a long time to fall apart and desolve again once they become disconnected from the source. So you get kind of a line of cumulus with the upwind cumulus giving a good climb even low down, but the ones downwind only have good lift at altitude and the onces furthest downwind nothing at all.

[bluefang]

A wet damp low flatland... You live in Hell, Man!

Funny you say that... these are our official seasons:

weather-nc-funny.png

On the positive side - just 2 hour drive east is one type of paradise:




And 2.5 hour drive west is another type of paradise:

[dgtfer]

And 2.5 hour drive west is another type of paradise:

This is my type of paradise, absolutely gorgeous!