Flying the Libelle

Moderators: Uros, Tom, OXO

User avatar
Paul_UK
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: Southampton, UK

Flying the Libelle

Post by Paul_UK » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:04 am

The group of pilots I fly with are flying a series of 100k UK tasks at the moment. These are all Club Class or Cirrus only races. I thought it'd be interesting to stick with one glider only for the Club Class race so chose the Libelle as UK weather doesn't produce booming soaring conditions. Last night we flew this task https://www.condor-club.eu/showtask/0/?id=16272 which I think has weather conditions that replicate what we see in the UK quite well. The task was fun, a little more challenging than we all thought it would be but most made it round.

I thought the Libelle should do well in the conditions in this task, I know pilot decisions can have a big impact. From what I've read the Libelle climbs on the weakest of lift and should climb well on weaker days still. I've a fair few hours in Condor, I'm not too shabby at thermalling alas when in a thermal with ASW19s I climb no quicker at all. Last night was a busy race so I had a few occasions to compare properly. As the Libelle isn't climbing any quicker I gain nothing there and then the 19 romps off when flying between thermals, dammit!!

So any tips to get the best out of the Libelle in Condor? Best thermalling speed etc. I was thermalling at around 42 - 45knots as I found I could hold the same diameter turn as others but with a reduced bank angle. I know in RL they are still a competitive glider in Club Class in the right conditions.

I will stick with the Libelle but it is a bit frustrating watching the 19s romp away all the time (I'm aware I don't need to cross the line as quick as them due to handicap).
Last edited by Paul_UK on Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
2018 - Silver Badge complete - Forgot I could claim for the 100km diploma flying an out and return :oops:
2019 - Get up to speed and aim for a 300km task?! maybe.....

User avatar
jcomm
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 12:51 am

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by jcomm » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:26 am

Thx for sharing your experience, which I am willing to replicate downloading the UK scenery and the task. I also own the Libelle but seldom use it ...

Question - why does the Pegase get a 0.0 handicap ?
José Monteiro
Hey you Chicks flying bricks....
Come Fly Gliders ! Be Outsiders!

User avatar
Paul_UK
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: Southampton, UK

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by Paul_UK » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:42 am

I think that is a glitch on CC as I uploaded that task prior to the Pegase being released. In sim the Pegase has the appropriate handicap applied.

I rarely use the Libelle either but I like it's lines and thought I'd choose a glider and stick with it and see how it pans out. Most of the 100k UK tasks I've created have more typical UK soaring conditions so I thought it may stand a chance. As said, it could just be down to me making not so great decisions at times but last night most of us had to take a climb that we didn't really want to so that we could continue the task.

Also I flew a block speed of 70 - 75knots yesterday but due to the thermal strength variation more often closer to 70knots :lol:
Image
2018 - Silver Badge complete - Forgot I could claim for the 100km diploma flying an out and return :oops:
2019 - Get up to speed and aim for a 300km task?! maybe.....

User avatar
wickid
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:32 pm
Location: Venlo, NL
Contact:

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by wickid » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:45 am

Where does the pegase get a 0,0 handicap? As far as I can see it has 102 in Condor
PH-1504, KOE
Image

User avatar
jcomm
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 12:51 am

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by jcomm » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:12 am

wickid wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:45 am
Where does the pegase get a 0,0 handicap? As far as I can see it has 102 in Condor
Task description from the task mentioned in the OP:

https://www.condor-club.eu/showtask/0/; ... E?id=16272
José Monteiro
Hey you Chicks flying bricks....
Come Fly Gliders ! Be Outsiders!

User avatar
6266
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:07 am
Location: Gausdal, Norway

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by 6266 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:02 am

Nearly all handicaps in the discription are different to the handicaps in condor (ASW20 105,5 vs. 110, Libelle 99 vs. 98, LS4 102,5 vs. 104, StdCirrus 100 vs. 99). It would be great for transparancy reasons if the used handicap will be shown in the raceresults.
P. Klett / PK6
Flat_Land_Club / Flat Land Cup: Informations and anonymized results on http://www.baleit.no/flc.nsf

User avatar
wickid
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:32 pm
Location: Venlo, NL
Contact:

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by wickid » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:20 am

Condor (the program itself) uses the DAeC index list. Latest version at the moment found here: https://www.daec.de/fileadmin/user_uplo ... final_.pdf

Condor-Club uses the FAI igc index in clubclass. Latest version found here: https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files ... _2017a.pdf. Condor-club is a website run by BOD1 which is only loosely affiliated with the main Condor team. The Condor team has little influence over what BOD1 decides to use as index on his website.

So for the time the results between Condor and Condor-club will vary slightly due to the differences in handicap when using clubclass. Condor uses DAeC because it is a much more complete list allowing gliders to compete handicapped in All class.
PH-1504, KOE
Image

User avatar
Paul_UK
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: Southampton, UK

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by Paul_UK » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:08 pm

Another thing to note when looking at scores on CC. DAEC handicap is used when viewing scores of a task via the multiplayers results tab. IGC handicap is only applied to flights uploaded via the best performance tab. Just to confuse things more :mrgreen:

Check the results of the task. LIW is behind me in the results on the latest multiplayer results however on the best performances tab he is ahead of me. I think IGC handicap figure on CC for the ASW20 is based on the ASW20F? the one with the nice bendy wings, whereas in Condor we actually have a nice stiff winged ASW20B

We score against DAEC. I've read DAEC is more suited to use for the weather conditions in UK / Europe.
Image
2018 - Silver Badge complete - Forgot I could claim for the 100km diploma flying an out and return :oops:
2019 - Get up to speed and aim for a 300km task?! maybe.....

User avatar
wickid
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:32 pm
Location: Venlo, NL
Contact:

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by wickid » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:11 pm

Paul_UK wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:08 pm
We score against DAEC. I've read DAEC is more suited to use for the weather conditions in UK / Europe.
Correct, that is what it is designed for. German weather :lol:
PH-1504, KOE
Image

roeoender
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:04 am

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by roeoender » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:14 pm

Hi Paul, I flew ASW19 yesterday and we seem did have some thermals together and had similiar times so I've just uploaded my track RN(CN)= SP-AG (JW) for comparison. At around 14:23 - 14:27 we do same thermal from same height and indeed the climb speed seem to be the same.

Anyways thanks for all the more thermal than ridge soaring tasks, I really enjoyed yesterday's weak thermals - felt just like at my location right at the Baltic coast :)

User avatar
jcomm
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 12:51 am

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by jcomm » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:19 pm

Thx for all the answers regarding handicap ! I'm learning !!! But it's a bit complex for me I must confess, with so many variations...

Regarding the OP question, I'd say since the wing loading of the ASW 19 is above that of the Libelle, also meaning better penetration, only option would be to add ballast to the Libelle ( if allowed ) and set a higher than planned MC, but I can be wrong, and please let me know where :-)
José Monteiro
Hey you Chicks flying bricks....
Come Fly Gliders ! Be Outsiders!

User avatar
Paul_UK
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: Southampton, UK

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by Paul_UK » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:24 pm

Hi Roeoender. I recall sharing a thermal with you and I was trying all manner of things to out climb you, it just wouldn't happen. CB8 was the other CN I was in a thermal with around the same height and again I wasn't out climbing them. I must be missing a technique that needs to be used for the Libelle. I can't find the sweet spot maybe.

Glad you enjoyed the task. Several of the 100k tasks have weather conditions that offer a challenge. I'm creating an 18m task our of Lasham with airspace based on RL. I think it'll be a task that will have pilot's dumping water if they take full tanks. It's another with similar strength thermals as last night. Unsure when that one will go up as a task at present though.

Jcomm, it is club class rules so no ballast allowed in any of these tasks. The lighter wing loading is why the Libelle should out climb the 19. It just means it's glide between thermals suffers if you increase the speed too much. I've only been learning about the handicaps and how Condor / CC score it recently myself so don't worry, we're all always learning!
Image
2018 - Silver Badge complete - Forgot I could claim for the 100km diploma flying an out and return :oops:
2019 - Get up to speed and aim for a 300km task?! maybe.....

User avatar
jcomm
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 12:51 am

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by jcomm » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:18 pm

Thx Paul,

and yes, now I see I was "lost in translation" because I read " a bit frustrating watching the 19s romp away all the time" and interpreted "romp" as horizontal progression ...

Native language is Portuguese here, so this happens many times :-)
José Monteiro
Hey you Chicks flying bricks....
Come Fly Gliders ! Be Outsiders!

User avatar
Paul_UK
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: Southampton, UK

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by Paul_UK » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:53 am

Any other tips from anyone ref flying the Libelle? I assume it just isn't a glider that is flown by many that often :(
Image
2018 - Silver Badge complete - Forgot I could claim for the 100km diploma flying an out and return :oops:
2019 - Get up to speed and aim for a 300km task?! maybe.....

k6chris
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:34 am

Re: Flying the Libelle

Post by k6chris » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:04 am

In real life, my Libelle is left for dust by most other gliders. This has been simulated very well when I fly in Condor......

Seriously, IRL I would not thermal a Libelle below 45kts, so that might be the issue re climb? The Libelle communicates very clearly where the lift is, which helps the to centre quickly. Not the same in Condor :( I would expect the Pegase to glide better, partly wing loading, partly glide performance.

Post Reply