Realistic Settings for Thermals

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Lenticular
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Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by Lenticular » Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:25 am

Hi,

I'm a UK-based pilot IRL, and wanting to set up the sim to reflect an average day in the UK.

So far I have been setting the sim to very weak and narrow thermals for practise locating and centering, but I was wondering what gives a more representative level of thermals for longer and more realistic tasks?

How does the "variation" actually work? If I set it to "very weak" and "high", does it follow a gaussian distribution model around the set strength?

Does the time of day affect the thermal rate/strength? It seems there is no way to set a time-based varience beyond the basic parameters (e.g. start the day with weak and few thermals, becoming strong and frequent in the afternoon).
G-ZULU /// LTN
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wickid
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by wickid » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:01 am

Lenticular wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:25 am

How does the "variation" actually work? If I set it to "very weak" and "high", does it follow a gaussian distribution model around the set strength?

Does the time of day affect the thermal rate/strength? It seems there is no way to set a time-based varience beyond the basic parameters (e.g. start the day with weak and few thermals, becoming strong and frequent in the afternoon).
https://www.condorsoaring.com/about/

Maybe also watch the video about weather
PH-1504, KOE

aliran
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by aliran » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:51 am

I am also from the UK and although i've been using Condor for a long time for instructing and it's great for this purpose, i've never used it for competition practice before, but I am now and it's great for many of the tactical skills.

I am however also finding similar issues trying to set realistic flat-land weather.

Two main issues:

1. The weather is too consistent: It appears that Condor allows you only one set of weather parameters for the whole flight area, that means that as you are moving away from the takeoff point the weather stays the same, whereas in reality we know the weather is never the same, you get areas of blue, then areas of small cumulus, then great cumulus and then maybe overdevelopment, and maybe back to blue. In the UK it changes about every 30km and in Australia it changes about every 50km. Also there is no way to set up the coming of fronts during the day.

2. Overdevelopment: To set up the behavior of thermals in condor you set 3 parameters: height of inversion, temperature and moisture level. This roughly corresponds to the T-skew chart and makes sense. However, the behavior of the Inversion Lever parameter is not quite correct in my opinion. In Condor if you raise the inversion level you get higher cumulus depth (correct) but when you lower the inversion level, leaving the temperature and moisture the same, you get smaller cumulus, in reality you will get over-development, this is because the clouds can't develop vertically so they spread horizontally. I have not been able to generate an overdeveloped looking sky in Condor, any thoughts?

Finally i was wondering if the Condor team are considering using real or predicted weather data-sets from e.g. SkySight or TopMeteo. It would be great if you can get historical data and use that to generate a very realistic weather over a large area.

We would go mad without Condor these days! Thank you Condor Team!

Uros
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by Uros » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:33 am

Hi aliran,

we are already working on those improvements, both are on our ToDo list for a long time already. They were planned for initial Condor 2 release, but it could postpone the release for at least half a year. So we decided to release Condor 2 and work on further weather improvement later.

Cheers,
Uros Bergant,
Condor Team

aliran
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by aliran » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:51 am

Hi Uros,

Good to hear thank you!

Ayala

I-FOXY
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by I-FOXY » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:13 pm

The implementation of the weather setting based on real data or forecasting is a great option to have Condor 2 as a simulation system for reality: i.e. think to try in advance the fly in a good forecast day ... or try to compare your performance with the best OLC fly in a specific day.

Great idea. Many thanks.

Lorenzo.

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strawberrybacon
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by strawberrybacon » Thu May 14, 2020 3:35 pm

Wow!
Last edited by strawberrybacon on Thu May 14, 2020 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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strawberrybacon
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by strawberrybacon » Thu May 14, 2020 3:35 pm

Uros wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:33 am
Hi aliran,

we are already working on those improvements, both are on our ToDo list for a long time already. They were planned for initial Condor 2 release, but it could postpone the release for at least half a year. So we decided to release Condor 2 and work on further weather improvement later.

Cheers,
Realistic weather patterns based on real world data?!
What a fantastic feature to have included! It would make all the difference for grounded pilots in these times.

Hope to see this feature coming to Condor 2! Wow.
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OXO
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by OXO » Thu May 14, 2020 4:32 pm

I don't want to piss on your bonfire, but that's not what Uros said . . .
Chris Wedgwood,
Condor Team

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congo
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by congo » Thu May 14, 2020 9:17 pm

What you can do for the time being is to experiment.

Different sceneries offer different opportunities for simulating weather in Condor.

Experienced task setters can produce variable weather effects reliably, it is a complex process
and you need a good understanding of how Condor makes weather and experience to do these
tricks.
I find the new weather tools in Condor2 are much better than they were in Condor1, now we can make
some really interesting tasks. Take advantage of tools like ACTIVITY and FLATS ACTIVITY.

For example, you can start a task at the coast, with 1300-1500m cloudbase and a fairly low inversion.
You task into rising ground with medium variables, go into rough mountains, have some upper wind set,
and before you know it, you are boxed in with thick cloud looking for a clear ridge to climb into wave.

Use the wave functions to set unflyable wave that simulates rotor or large areas of sink.
Make the wave invisible by reducing moisture and your ridge running gun pilots will be in unfamiliar territory
when the ridges run obliquely to the wind, with some wind shifts and dropouts.

You can give pilots the ability to make good climbs, but then all is in chaos when the unexpected happens,
mix it up!

If you set the inversion slightly below the dew point, with some variation, you will get large blue areas, or maybe
just a few of the taller thermals making clouds. Task into rising ground and watch the development.

These tricks and nuances may not be too realistic, but it certainly adds variation and makes interesting tasks.

Think of "Normal" thermal width as narrow if you want to make fun tasks. If you combine turbulence and
weakness with narrow thermals, no one will want to fly your tasks for very long.

You can make a challenge and have fun and interesting tasks without torturing your pilots.

Use your imagination!
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KipperUK
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by KipperUK » Thu May 14, 2020 11:42 pm

We sometimes simulate overdevelopment by pulling the inversion layer really high, setting activity to high, and keeping cloudbase at 3-5000'. It resembles a day where you know you're going to get bounced around a bit, probably rained on, and maybe see a flash or two.

I would love (as I'm sure we all would) to hear what weather improvements are coming down the line. As Ayala said, the consistency of the soaring area makes many tasks feel the same, unless you vary the terrain you're flying over (thank goodness for the Moors/Pennines) and it would be good to have to work in a more complex environment.

We use airspace (penalty zones) to keep people thinking. Here's our latest run around the North of England:
https://www.condor-club.eu/showtask/0/?id=14843

rentsch
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by rentsch » Tue May 26, 2020 6:21 pm

"Realistic" Weather? Here is an idea... using the concept of 'crowdsourcing'... build a 'table' of appropriate weather settings for the areas around the world's gliderports, based upon season. and how 'good' the day is. So, the user could pick a gliderport, summer (or maybe to the month level as we refine the data?) , and whether it is a barely flyable day, a good day, or a great day, then the appropriate weather settings are dialed in for that area around the gliderport. For those of us that fly in different places in the world, it is like a virtual 'local' ('today is a good day to fly', and the weather is appropriate to the area). Thanks.
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mrstells
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Re: Realistic Settings for Thermals

Post by mrstells » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:22 pm

I know this is somewhat of an older thread, but I was interested in Condor thermal width, and I decided to test it out myself, with XCSoar as my measurement tool. I flew the Libelle with zero wind and zero thermal width variation. The widths you see below are roughly the maximum circle diameter I found to stay in about the best lift area. This experiment was very crude so these numbers are only rough estimates, give or take 20-50m. Here is what I found in terms of thermal diameter for the corresponding thermal setting in Condor.

Very Narrow: <120m
Narrow: <150m
Normal: <200m
Wide: <280-300m
Very Wide: <400-500m

In real life (I live in Illinois, USA), I rarely come upon a thermal less than 150m in diameter, assuming that given thermal seems fairly circular (which most are not). Likewise, I find it rare to find anything on the "Very Wide" spectrum as well. I would be interested in hearing what pilots from other areas/countries observe as well.

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