Day 8 -biggest tie I have seen

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Cumulus7
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Post by Cumulus7 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:46 pm

TimKuijpers wrote:because, your start point is always the turnpoint itself.
never a point in the sector.
Leaving this sector/ crossing the line, will only determine the start time, not the start place because that's allready given from the start..

I understand your idea, but it just don't work that way, look when SeeYou scores an AAT.
It will show you your task with the blue lines, look where they start, and where they end..

Same goes for a normal task when you finish 90 degrees from last leg, you will finish 2km before you reach the finish itself.
Still you will get full distance.
That probably is something from way back with foto cameras, but still is there for as long as I can remember.
I disagree about the start-point in an AA-Task.

quoting the FAI-Sporting-Code Annex A:
Wenn der Teilnehmer das Ziel erreicht, nachdem er alle festgelegten Gebiete in der korrekten
Reihenfolge durchflogen hat, ist seine Wertungsdistanz die Distanz von seinem tatsächlichen
Abflugpunkt über alle festgelegten Gebiete hinweg zu seinem Zielpunkt.
-> "his distance is the distance from his REAL starting point ......"

Or am i misinterpreting something?

On a competition 2 years ago i was told the real crossing point over the start-line would be counted for the distance.

CU
Markus

TimKuijpers
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Post by TimKuijpers » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:08 pm

Annex A says following, not Real, but Actual.
While actual could mean several things in my opnion.
What is the startpoint? the turnpoint itself? or the point where the pilot crosses the line?

As they are talking about a point, it probably is something static? and on the task sheat there is a start point.. the actual startpoint of the day.
Because you can start elswhere on the line/sector, but your distance will be calculated from the actual start point.

And you probably read it different, but incorrect. (imo)
Maybe some native englishman could tell us where to go,
but on all competitions I've been it is scored as seeyou does it..
I would be stunned if that wouldn't be right because there are soo many people who must have overlooked this thing..
the Marking Distance is the distance from his
actual Start Point, round all Assigned Areas, to the Goal.
Think positive, flaps negative.

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UWE
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Post by UWE » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:11 pm

Yes, Markus - that is my point of knowledge too

Startpoint is the point where i cross the startline.

TimKuijpers
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Post by TimKuijpers » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:16 pm

On most competitions scoring is done with seeyou,
so who can tell me where to find an option to change the start point?

I searched through every menu of SeeYou, inclduding the help function.
Why would it be there if it has never been used on world championships which are all held under regulations of Annex A?

I know my last sentence is a bit of reversed politics/evidence..
but till then let's just stick to my previous post.
Think positive, flaps negative.

Cumulus7
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Post by Cumulus7 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:19 pm

TimKuijpers wrote:Annex A says following, not Real, but Actual.
While actual could mean several things in my opnion.
What is the startpoint? the turnpoint itself? or the point where the pilot crosses the line?

As they are talking about a point, it probably is something static? and on the task sheat there is a start point.. the actual startpoint of the day.
Because you can start elswhere on the line/sector, but your distance will be calculated from the actual start point.

And you probably read it different, but incorrect. (imo)
Maybe some native englishman could tell us where to go,
but on all competitions I've been it is scored as seeyou does it..
I would be stunned if that wouldn't be right because there are soo many people who must have overlooked this thing..
the Marking Distance is the distance from his
actual Start Point, round all Assigned Areas, to the Goal.
If they would mean "starting point (middle of start-line)" why not say so?
"Actual" for me means the real point... e.g. the crossing point.
After all, it is a start-line, not a start-point :)

But well.... i guess we have to wait for some better informed person.
If i remeber correctly they used SeeYou as well for scoring 2 years ago. But then i did not recheck my results.

Unfortunately i cant recheck them now, since i dont have an offical scoring sheet of the last competition day... And during this years Hahnweide we didnt have any AATs.

CU
Markus

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UWE
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Post by UWE » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:50 pm

By the way....

By 50km to TP1 is the distance difference if you start in the middle or on the outside (5km) maximal 250m :roll:

Cumulus7
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Post by Cumulus7 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:02 pm

UWE wrote:By the way....

By 50km to TP1 is the distance difference if you start in the middle or on the outside (5km) maximal 250m :roll:
well.. maybe for the difference to the middle of the circle...
but imagine starting at the left-most position and the going to the right-most corner of the area.
That should be more like 5km difference.

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Markus

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Polewka
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Post by Polewka » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:36 pm

Just read it from Annex A:

7.4 STARTING
7.4.1 Definitions
a. Start Point - is the center of the start ring, start line, assigned start point, or selected start point used by the competitor, as appropriate.
The first leg distance is assessed from the Start Point to first Turn Point or Assigned Area, except that, if option (a) - Start Ring is used, the first leg distance is from the center of the start ring to the first Turn Point or Assigned Area minus the radius of the start ring.
b. Start Time - is the time the competitor leaves the start ring or start point, or crosses the start line, except that if Start Times are assigned, the Start Time shall be the assigned time


And also:

7.7.2 Definitions
a. The Goal is the center of the finish line or the finish ring.
The last leg distance is assessed from the defined position of the last Turn Point or Assigned Area, to the Goal, less the radius of the finish ring in option (b).
b. The Finish Time is defined as the time the sailplane first crosses the finish line or finish ring after completing the task.


In my point of view Tim is absolutely right.

Cya

P.S.: and found also this, just to point out what I said on my prevoious post:

7.5.3 Organisers must avoid setting Turn Points or Assigned Areas close to Start Points. Assigned Areas must not overlap.A minimum seperation of 1 km shall be applied between adjacent areas.
René
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Cumulus7
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Post by Cumulus7 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:53 pm

Polewka wrote:Just read it from Annex A:

7.4 STARTING
7.4.1 Definitions
a. Start Point - is the center of the start ring, start line, assigned start point, or selected start point used by the competitor, as appropriate.
The first leg distance is assessed from the Start Point to first Turn Point or Assigned Area, except that, if option (a) - Start Ring is used, the first leg distance is from the center of the start ring to the first Turn Point or Assigned Area minus the radius of the start ring.
b. Start Time - is the time the competitor leaves the start ring or start point, or crosses the start line, except that if Start Times are assigned, the Start Time shall be the assigned time


In my point of view Tim is absolutely right.

Cya
the official document says:
If the competitor returns to the Goal after having visited all the Assigned Areas in the correct order, the Marking Distance is the distance from his actual Start Point, round all Assigned Areas, to the Goal.
from: http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/sc3a_2006.pdf

your quote is a bit out of context... in paragraph 7.4 it says also right before your quote:
a. Start Point - is the center of the start ring, start line, assigned start point, or selected start point used by the competitor, as appropriate.
So you could argue, that by crossing the line you select the crossing point as start-point and then apply your quote, thereby arriving at the "crossing the line"-start point.

CU
Markus

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Polewka
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Post by Polewka » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:04 pm

Sorry Markus, but you are wrong

If you read the definitions of start options, it says clearly:

7.4.2 Start Options The Organisers shall select one start procedure for every task, but not more than two during the competition, from the following options. The Start Options selected for the Championship shall be stated in the Local Procedures.
The options are:
a. Start Ring An area, formed by a circle around a start point, the defined radius being sufficient to encompass the departure airfield and all release areas.
b. Start Line
(i) A straight line, of defined length, perpendicular to the track to the first
Turn Point, or the center of first Assigned Area, or
(ii) An arc, of defined length, at a constant distance from the first Turn Point or the center of first Assigned Area.
c. Assigned Start Point Multiple start areas, defined by circles of 0.5 km radius around each start point. Each pilot shall be allocated a specific startpoint each day.
d. Optional Start Point Multiple groups of start areas, defined by circles of 0.5 Km radius around each start point. Each pilot shall be allocated one start group each day and shall select one of the start areas in this group. Organisers may use Start Options a, c and d for all Tasks and Start Option b for Racing Tasks and Speed and Distance Tasks using Assigned Areas.


And about official document, all my quotes are from the Annex A to Section from the FAI Sporting Code and, most important, these are the definitions.

FAI documents never were known to have a good wording... :shock: :)

Cya
René
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Cumulus7
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Post by Cumulus7 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:11 pm

Polewka wrote:Sorry Markus, but you are wrong

If you read the definitions of start options, it says clearly:

7.4.2 Start Options The Organisers shall select one start procedure for every task, but not more than two during the competition, from the following options. The Start Options selected for the Championship shall be stated in the Local Procedures.
The options are:
a. Start Ring An area, formed by a circle around a start point, the defined radius being sufficient to encompass the departure airfield and all release areas.
b. Start Line
(i) A straight line, of defined length, perpendicular to the track to the first
Turn Point, or the center of first Assigned Area, or
(ii) An arc, of defined length, at a constant distance from the first Turn Point or the center of first Assigned Area.
c. Assigned Start Point Multiple start areas, defined by circles of 0.5 km radius around each start point. Each pilot shall be allocated a specific startpoint each day.
d. Optional Start Point Multiple groups of start areas, defined by circles of 0.5 Km radius around each start point. Each pilot shall be allocated one start group each day and shall select one of the start areas in this group. Organisers may use Start Options a, c and d for all Tasks and Start Option b for Racing Tasks and Speed and Distance Tasks using Assigned Areas.


And about official document, all my quotes are from the Annex A to Section from the FAI Sporting Code and, most important, these are the definitions.

FAI documents never were known to have a good wording... :shock: :)

Cya
:? well... where does your quote above contradict what i said in previous post? (The "competitor-selected start-point")
Your quote doesnt mention any distance-calculation relevant start-points...

ah well... FAI stuff is really awfull... how about getting a bunch of lawyers to look it over? :) Cant get much worse i guess.

Edit: at least we can agree that we have a start-line... i hope...
But where on that start-line is the start-point?

CU
Markus

Cumulus7
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Post by Cumulus7 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:29 pm

Since we have no "all-knowing" pilots here, i posted the question on the german segelflug.de forum, in the hope that someone there can shed a light on the problem.

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Markus

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Polewka
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Post by Polewka » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:39 pm

Cumulus7 wrote: :? well... where does your quote above contradict what i said in previous post? (The "competitor-selected start-point")
Because the competitor selected start point is a point (not a point in a line), as defined in 7.4.2 -d, which he/she can select from the allocated start points group. If I remember correctly in the WGC Mafikeng 2001 they used this kind of start procedure.
Cumulus7 wrote:But where on that start-line is the start-point?Markus
In the middle, as defined in 7.4.1 -a.

Cya
René
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Cumulus7
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Post by Cumulus7 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:46 pm

Polewka wrote:
Cumulus7 wrote: :? well... where does your quote above contradict what i said in previous post? (The "competitor-selected start-point")
Because the competitor selected start point is a point (not a point in a line), as defined in 7.4.2 -d, which he/she can select from the allocated start points group. If I remember correctly in the WGC Mafikeng 2001 they used this kind of start procedure.
Cumulus7 wrote:But where on that start-line is the start-point?Markus
In the middle, as defined in 7.4.1 -a.

Cya
Hi René,

you just might have a point there :)
I am still not totally sure... but will adjust my start-point behaviour according to the "new" (for me) rules.

CYA
Markus

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Polewka
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Post by Polewka » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:53 pm

Sure Markus :D :D

And btw, on the Sundays task, it was far more interesting to start on the southeast side of the line because of the ridge you could fly very speedy without loosing height on the first km's, and at least for me (don't know if I should have taken it) there was a 4 m/s avg. ridgethermal at the end of it.

Cya
René
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