Force feedback?

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Agentschlegel
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Force feedback?

Post by Agentschlegel » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:53 am

Dear Cockpit builders!

I'm just started to build my own cockpit and i was just trying to figure out if there is a way to add force feedack to the controls! Does anyone have any ideas or links how to do that?

If I knew how the force feedback signals work, we could maybe fing a way to built the mechanism ourselves!

Any idea is welcome!

Thanks

Best regards

bjoern
Provence 2.....all artwork

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JEP
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 3:29 pm

Post by JEP » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:06 pm

An "easy" way might be to "cannibalize" a FFB joystick.

shanmoon2
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:37 am

Re: Force feedback?

Post by shanmoon2 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:12 pm

I've actually ordered a brunner control loading stick. It is quite expensive, unfotunately. I'll have to right some to talk to the condor udp server for it to work (out of box it works with prepar3d and xplane). The advantage that it will privde true control loading. The downside is it is very expense.

sisu1a
Posts: 337
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Bay Area, California (USA)

Re: Force feedback?

Post by sisu1a » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:47 am

JEP wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:06 pm
An "easy" way might be to "cannibalize" a FFB joystick.

This is the best solution honestly... the MSFFII already plays well with Condor and there are known pathways to get up to 400% the torque out of it. I've nearly got all my parts together to do just this, following a friend's recipe but with glider kinematics (25cm for roll, 30cm for pitch) that will be able to put out ~3.5Nm.

I'll be documenting it all here soon of course... I've got really nice motors (Pittman DC brushed motors with skewed armatures) for this and am getting together my belt drive hardware for a 25:1 gear ratio, very similar to the MSFFII's stock ratio. There is some mods to do to the main boards as well as using my own psu, but again this is a known recipe several folks have made work.

http://www.simprojects.nl/ms_siderwinder_ff2_hack.htm

MSFFII has a pretty advanced FF circuit for a cheap joystick so makes a great candidate to hack from. Brunner hardware is certainly very nice, but really expensive and does not work with the stock DirectInput FF signals, plus the x and y axes are on the same plane so pitch/roll is fixed at the same length. To its credit though it uses the same M36x2 mount and I2C protocols that Thrustmaster uses for Warthog so there are already a number of grips that work with it as well as extensions.

I'll be making a pure sailplane grip as well, and will make them available with that mounting pattern as I've already been dabbling in this with space sims and other stuff for a while...

janjansen
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: Force feedback?

Post by janjansen » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:58 pm

shanmoon2 wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:12 pm
I've actually ordered a brunner control loading stick. It is quite expensive, unfotunately. I'll have to right some to talk to the condor udp server for it to work (out of box it works with prepar3d and xplane). The advantage that it will privde true control loading. The downside is it is very expense.

You're not kidding when you say expensive. €1.699,00. Ouch

Im also looking in to a simpit project, and for now Im leaning towards simply mounting a MS FFB2 between the legs or on a little foldable tray .
Maybe lengthen the stick a little, even if that will reduce the forces.

What sisu1a is planning is something Ill follow with interest, but probably wont attempt myself.

janjansen
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: Force feedback?

Post by janjansen » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:15 pm

Found an easy solution. I didnt even have to design it, someone did it for me. Extension for FFB2 downloadable from thingiverse:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2120328

Printed one out, and did a quick test to see how it works:

Image

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I still have to extend the cables for the buttons, I have to glue the halves together and maybe reinforce it, but it works really well. Now I can mount the stick below the legs in my simpit.

Yes, force feedback is reduced, but its still good enough.

echofive
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:23 am

Re: Force feedback?

Post by echofive » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:19 am

We should be able to make force feedback cockpits quite inexpensively and easily.
Amateur built is a great cost-saver. And a great way to make technology that is adapted to the purpose.
I did build a stick/rudder/airbrake system using tilt (3-axis acceleration) sensors with a sparkfun promicro for the joystick interface to condor 2.
Coupling a dc motor to each of 3 axes ($33 each at andymark) using timing belts and simple current regulating drivers should involve spending about $200 extra.
I just need somebody to show me how the force-feedback to joystick data protocol works.

mhs
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:52 pm

Re: Force feedback?

Post by mhs » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:59 pm

I am looking at trying to construct a direct drive angular motor, similar to the units used in rotating rust disk
drives for positioning the heads, to see if it can provide enough torque for stick feedback. For pedals I would
expect just adjusting the stiffness depending on airspeed would be sufficient, this method is used on some
simulators for all controls and is simple to implement, better than none on the stick and I may use this as the
first stage together with a large weight on the stick to provide some inertial feel.
Testing on a dead 3.5 inch drive shows 400gm force at the head location with 1 amp current through the
coil. It is mechanically simple and the motor drive ICs are easy to use. First step is a test motor to see
if the idea is workable, just need some magnets, iron, wire for coil and a bench PSU for initial test.
Image

echofive
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:23 am

Re: Force feedback?

Post by echofive » Fri Mar 22, 2024 5:50 pm

any progress?

sisu1a
Posts: 337
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Bay Area, California (USA)

Re: Force feedback?

Post by sisu1a » Sat Mar 23, 2024 5:52 am

Whoa, haven't posted in this thread in a while. Not sure about op but I've made some progress in this regard :p.. here's my (now retired) hot rodded MSFF II. I made new gimbals, shaft/grip modeled after a typical modern sailplane stick/grip, mechanically counterbalanced in pitch. It's about 30cm in pitch, 25cm in roll from pivot to top of grip. Shaft is 20mm carbon tube with printed elbows, jb-weld'd together. 7 buttons on grip. followed Roland van Roy's simple mod of adding resisters in the current sensing circuit to double the torque of the stock motors, and ran it with a bigger psu. Here's what that looks like:

Image

This album details the build, with descriptions under the pictures https://imgur.com/a/4PHsM3V

However these days there are better options than even the best hot rodded MSFFII. There's ways to use BLDC motors to make plug-and-play FF bases or buy ones already made. I'm using Rhino base mechanicals, with my own gimbals/enclosure that's a 6 inch cube (much smaller than the stock Rhino). I'm just wrapping up my new glider shaft/grip, which is the big boy version of my MSFFII posted above. I used the same grip file (Open Vario https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1818509 printed at 120% scale). This one is 14 button. New shaft is thin wall 1" aluminum tube, also with 3d printed elbows but these were printed cross-grain as halves and solvent welded together.. really strong compared to the 'normal' way to print them. It has a shift register board in the grip and the same m36x2 threaded connection as TM grips etc (would work on a thrustmaster base as well).

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base specs:

6" cube enclosure, internals are metal/ball bearing
8Nm (6:1 belt drive, GT3 3mm pitch/12mm width)
remote estop/aux pots
top/front/back/bottom mounts with 40mm spacing
accepts 5 pin spi grips (Thrustmaster, Virpil, BaurBRD, diy's with compat shift registers, WinWing with adapter)


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