RS15 Fuselage Pod as a cockpit? Questions

[cloudbaseengineering]

Hello All,

I recently posted a few questions regarding looking for a seat as well as VR info for a cockpit I was planning to build. Since then, I have had the good fortune to find an RS15 fuselage pod that already has the seat tray and area for the joystick. So with that said I decided to start a new post that is more relevant for the direction I will be going. I will be building this for myself as well as for use in our EAA chapter as a training aid for Young Eagles.

Below are some pics of the pod. I also have the upper rear portion as well but its not shown. The glider in the back is an SGS 1-26b SN# 390 that I am about to do some work on to get it back to airworthy.

IMG_1402.jpg

IMG_1400.jpg

Questions:

Joystick or Force Feedback:
I am thinking to use my existing Microsoft FFB2 joystick and will first try to mount it where the hole for the stick boot is on the floor. However, I could also design a non FFB gimbal and then mount it in the hole and attach an actual fabric or leather boot to hide everything. So how well does condor do with FFB sensations? Is it worth it to go the FFB route using what I have or try and make the cockpit cleaner and design an actual non FFB stick that looks the part?

Rudder Pedals:
I am thinking to use the Falcon S1 pedals that can be bought on Ebay. I watched a good review of them on YT and they look perfect. They are more set up as Heli pedals so I may need to modify the linkage to raise the pedals higher or mount them like pendulum pedals. Either way I can sort that out after I buy them. They are a bit wide so need to measure if they will fit or if I'd have to make a new mounting plate to bring everything inward a bit. Still even if I mod these all the parts are there so a good starting point. They will be mounted on a piece of makerbeam type extrusion so that they can slide forward so kids can use the simulator.

Falcon S1.JPG

Flaps, Gear, Spoilers, Hook release
I will design these using Maker beam type extrusion and rotary halls, potentiometers or rotary encoders. Likely get a leo bodnar board for any other controls or switches I need to add.

Monitors or VR?
This is a big one so unsure what to do. If I go VR, I have an HTC Vive a friend lent me and can design around that, but imagine I would need to stall have a laptop in a swing out pedestal for starting the game and other things. VR will likely be a big hit with the Young Eagle kids and easier to move the simulator for demos not having to worry about big Monitors. Is there a VR goggle that has an AR passthrough where I can activate a button on the control stick that turns on the camera so I can see my surroundings if needed while playing the game?

Motion Platform:
First iteration will be a static simulator but might consider putting it on a DOF Reality 3 axis motion platform. Or forget yaw and just go 2 axis. Anyone flying Condor on a motion platform. How does it feel and is it very herky jerky?

If this works I do have possible access to another more recent sailplane mold so might be able to make the shells available to other builders.

Open to any advice and or suggestions.

[cloudbaseengineering]

While I likely will fly the 1-26 and other vintage gliders the most I do want to make the cockpit compatible with the more modern gliders. Of all the flapped gliders in Condor which has the most flap settings Ie detents I need to accommodate? Is it 6 or 7?

I bought a Virpil mc2 base and will need to design a button interface on the top with a Hat switch, Momentary switch and likely a few buttons. What functions are most commonly mapped to the joystick. Since the design is in process, I can accommodate pretty much anything needed within reason.

[wickid]

I think currenlty the Ventus 3 has the most flap detents at 8.

[cloudbaseengineering]

When mapping the controls can I have different maps for different gliders. This way on aircraft with less than 8 the controls can be assigned as needed.

[wickid]

No, there is one common mapping. I think on the flaps axis is just divides it into sections depending on the number of flap settings the plane has. Marc Till has printable labels for each plane on his website:

http://www.condorutill.fr/

[cloudbaseengineering]

Thanks for the link Wickid. I see that these are for a throttle quadrant and I have that same quadrant. Downside is I am planning for VR and not a monitor. I was under the impression that the flaps would be looking for detents or buttons instead of an analog proportional input. Since I am planning for VR could I design each flap setting as a detent (7 max) and map each switch as a button for Flap setting 1, 2 ,3 ,4 ,5, 6 & 7. This way I can have all flap points active and only use the setting each sailplane has in its design? Custom map profiles per sailplane would be even better but it seems that is not possible.

Or if I use a potentiometer on a linear travel slide (no detents), is it possible for Condor to show the flap setting as a display field somewhere. For example, I just pull the flap lever and even if the real plane has detents it will show on the screen Flap: +5 then change to flap +10 or whatever the next increment is in that design. This at least gives me a value to stop at since I wont be able to see anything outside the VR headset.

Also you linked me to an interface board but it seems that one requires some coding. Both the one you mentioned and Leo Bodnar are overseas. So is one better than the other for any reason? With the LB stuff it seems much easier, but he said long wire runs can be an issue with noise so I think that may force me to have multiple boards in the cockpit so that the long runs are going to a USB hub. Can condor take joystick inputs from multiple USB boards? The Virpil Joystick is one input and if I had it my way may have a board for the rudder pedals, A board for the flap, spoiler and trim Assembly, and another board for the Gear, water ballast, buttons and maybe joystick button block. So a total of 3 or 4 LB boards and the Virpil Joystick. Can condor and MSFS do this?

Thanks for your help,

Marc

[Bre901]

Thanks for the link Wickid. I see that these are for a throttle quadrant and I have that same quadrant. Downside is I am planning for VR and not a monitor. I was under the impression that the flaps would be looking for detents or buttons instead of an analog proportional input. Since I am planning for VR could I design each flap setting as a detent (7 max) and map each switch as a button for Flap setting 1, 2 ,3 ,4 ,5, 6 & 7. This way I can have all flap points active and only use the setting each sailplane has in its design? Custom map profiles per sailplane would be even better but it seems that is not possible.

For flaps there are no individual buttons, you can use either an analog axis or two keys or buttons : extend/retract (V/F keys by defaut) (both can work together)

Note : as OXO mentioned, there are 8 flaps settings for the Ventus3

[wickid]

The PoKeys 54E one doesn't require any coding. It is all visual via the interface. After you set up what input corresponds to what sensor and what each input has to then output (a key, a key combination or an analog axis), you upload it to the Pokeys board and it functions as a stand alone joystick after that. You don't even need the pokeys software on an other computer. You just plug it in any computer and it shows up as a joystick. I use it for a simulator cockpit I built.

The actual flap settings are displayed in the lower right corner of your view in VR. They are not persistent though, they show for a couple of seconds and then disappear.

[cloudbaseengineering]

Thanks for the info. I was a bit confused how the Pokeys box works being ethernet and not USB? I am open to going either way.

So it seems for flaps, there is no way to set a button or switch to be say 5 degrees of flaps. Its either up or down which I assume is up or down to next position based on the glider or have an analog setup where you keep pulling until the next flap threshold is hit. But with being different threshold values for each aircraft there is no real way to have repeatable detents work? Am I understanding this correctly? If this is the case it seems having a slider with just up at one end and down at the other would be best and if you need to jump 3 positions you just pull back and hit the switch 3 times and then put it back to a center detent with no switch.

Sorry for all these questions but its best to know how Condor reacts before designing the hardware. Any idea if MSFS is the same in regards to flaps. What is crazy I imagine 75% of the time I will fly the SGS 1-26 or Ka8 which have no flaps. I own an SGS 1-26b SN#390 I am about to restore but if I had my choice I would own a Ka8b instead but there are no hangar options at my glider port so need an all metal glider or mostly metal in the 1-26b case.

[wickid]

Thanks for the info. I was a bit confused how the Pokeys box works being ethernet and not USB? I am open to going either way.

Sorry my bad . PoKeys 57U is the USB version

So it seems for flaps, there is no way to set a button or switch to be say 5 degrees of flaps. Its either up or down which I assume is up or down to next position based on the glider or have an analog setup where you keep pulling until the next flap threshold is hit. But with being different threshold values for each aircraft there is no real way to have repeatable detents work? Am I understanding this correctly?

Correct. Only way to have real detents it to create a replaceable set of detents for each number of flap settings. You can find the spacings from Marc's files. You'll need detents for (depending on the planes you own):

3: Blanik
5: LS3a/ASW20/
6: Antares/JS1/JS3/StemmeS12
7: Diana2/ASG29/DG808/EB29R/Arcus
8: Ventus

It can be really easy. Just have a metal strip with notches cut out. Screw it on a small rail with 2 nuts you can turn by hand. If you have the flaplever spring-loaded against the strip it is really easy to pull it inwards to get it to unlock from a detent and then slide it to the next one along the rail.

Sorry for all these questions but its best to know how Condor reacts before designing the hardware. Any idea if MSFS is the same in regards to flaps.

MSFS is the same. It has keys to step the flaps 1 step in either direction and 2 keys to quickly put them in max or min setting. I don't know how flaps on an axis work in MSFS.

[wickid]

Just a quick design:

Flaps1.JPG

- The red bit attaches to your fuselage frame.
- The gray plate is replaceable. You'll need the 5 I mention above.
- The lever is spring loaded to it is pushed into the notches
- The black things are those knobs with a screwthread on the bottom so you can secure the plate in place

Flaps2.JPG

From the other side you'll see some kind of notch on the back of the lever as well that slots into the notches in the plate. If you make them angled like mine they'll slide out of the detents when you apply force forwards or backwards. Use Hall effect sensors or something which doesn't have a physical connection to alter the voltage/resistance. Otherwise you'll have to keep calibrating now and then. If you use something that measures the position without physical contact it will not loose calibration over time. I used the same in my sim built. It has been running for years without the need for recalibration. I used automotive throttle by wire sensors connected to the physical controls of a scrap ASK21 fuselage.

[cloudbaseengineering]

Thanks for the info. I am designing something very similar. I will be using hall sensors on the Rudder pedals and possibly a few other items, but on the long travel axis I was thinking to use a 10 turn 10K pot. Is there a Hall Sensor that can take multiple turns or infinite? I have sees infinite turn pots as well but unsure how that woudl work. My Flap Axis and Spoiler Axis will have a belt turning the multi turn pot and I will make sure over full travel it only uses 9 revolutions max. If there is a similar item that is hall based that woudl be great. Or I have some US Digital optical encoders running quadrature but they are very fine resolution so unsure if I can se that? Open to suggestions.

[wickid]

In the ASK21 fuselage I use the car throttle sensors on all axis. There is a linkage that transforms the linear motion of the lever to a rotation of about 45 degrees. I get the position off that with the sensor.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=12976

Old topic of my sim. It has been substantially upgraded and is now running Condor with a 210 degree visual using 3 beamers.

[cloudbaseengineering]

Thanks for the links. I found the 57U available in the USA through the robotshop and am leaning toward that now. Did you use just one on your entire cockpit? I am worried with noise issues running wires all over the cockpit back to just one interface. Also do you have access to a keyboard and mouse in the cockpit? I am thinking a trackball may suffice or a mini keyboard with a trackpad.

[wickid]

I run it off one board. I have no issues with noise. The signal cables are 3 or 5 volt and very low current. So they can be run next to each other no problem. As long as you don't run powercables next to them. I run the sensor cables via one side and the 12v power for the instrument panels ect along the other side of the cockpit.

There is no mouse or keyboard in the cockpit. All is controlled by some custom software I wrote and a 12 key matrix keypad mounted on the side of the cockpit. It allows you to navigate through on screen menu's and then sends all the mouse clicks ect. to Condor to start the simulator. During flight some of the most important controls like the miracle key, external view ect. are controlled from this keypad.