multiple monitors vs. VR googles

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DanP
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multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by DanP » Fri May 24, 2019 10:31 am

Whats the best setup, multiple monitors (what is the maximum for Condor v. 2 - 3 or 4 monitors?) or virtual reality googles?
The price should be more or less the same.
Monitors have few advantages like better screen resolution, you are not blinded by the googles and see the real controls, and you can use the monitors for other purposes than gaming, too.
Googles offer the unlimited arc of view, but I am affraid the eye strain will be higher and the resolution is certainly lower. Never tried it before though.
So what do you think is the better solution?

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EDB
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by EDB » Fri May 24, 2019 3:45 pm

DanP wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:31 am
So what do you think is the better solution?
3 monitors and TrackIR5 6DoF. Although currently there is no bezel correction...

sisu1a
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by sisu1a » Fri May 24, 2019 5:09 pm

VR is far more immersing than triple monitor imo,. Before VR was viable, TrackIR was the way to go and the more screen you can put in front of your eye the better but I'd take an average VR setup in a sensible cockpit over even exotic triple screen setups any day.

Al_B
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by Al_B » Fri May 24, 2019 11:55 pm

VR for the win. No contest imo.
Gravity never loses. The best you can hope for is a draw.

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DanP
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by DanP » Mon May 27, 2019 6:33 pm

OK but what about the eye strain? Any issues with long time use of VR googles?

MrHerisson
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by MrHerisson » Tue May 28, 2019 10:25 am

Hi,
I don't have VR and I must say I am quite tempted to try it but there are a few things that are holding me from buying a VR set (besides costs and installation hassels, pc being probably too old).

Back in the 90's I used to work in a place that had one of the first VR game in my country. The game was a dope, graphics were...square, and I think there was only 16 colors available but VR was smooth.

I am well aware that progress has been made since then. Neverhteless, there are some things that have not evolved I think.
The weight of the thing....it was ok for a 10 min game but even with a lighter set, I still think 3 hours of flight will leave your nose marked.
The eye strain,after all, you have two mini tv's right in front of your eyes.
I remember that after a short use, I would experience blurry vision for a short time...I can't imagine after hours of use.
Makes using XCSoar much more difficult. Or grabbing someting to drink etc...
I sometimes like to watch TV while flying....does not make me faster though.

On the other hand, unless you use a huge semicircular screen in a closed box, no matter how many monitors you use, you can always see your living room around it.
And it keeps reminding you that you're not really flying. So, I really feel that immersion wise, VR 's got to be a blast.
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blacksun
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by blacksun » Wed May 29, 2019 1:51 pm

The manufacturers have got a lot smarter about designing for weight. Most VR headsets have a strap arrangement so there is no pressure on the nose, in fact I have a small gap around my nose area I can peek through to see the screen if I need to. I find the rift pretty comfy although not as comfy as the Playstation VR headset.
XCSoar displays ok in VR, the Oculus software lets you view your desktop, then you can drag the XCSoar from your desktop (using a VR controller, like grabbing it with your hand) and put it anywhere you want to in the 3d space. You can size it, rotate it, etc. I have it as a knee board so when I look down at my lap, I can see XCSoar, its like flying with it on a tablet in the cockpit.
I don't have a problem with eye strain although when flying with lots of turbulence I can start to feel some level of discomfort. A lot of the people that run tasks tend to set the turbulence setting in condor to low for this reason. As a comparison when I first started thermalling hangliders in real life I nearly threw up and had to land.
My biggest problem is with keys. The joystick I have doesn't have enough buttons to map to all the controls you need in flight, I'm mainly lacking the ability to control the standard PDA and XCSoar. I did experiment with some voice control software which worked but in one flight it kept activating the chat (I had it say things like CG, Hello, etc) so now I just use the normal keyboard. By keeping everything in the same place I can do basic things like change PDA screen easily (Im yet to learn how to use the MC settings so don't alter that) and for the most part XCSoar works automatically. The gap in the nose area helps.
The new rift-S has the ability to activate a view where you can see your surroundings overlaid in the headset. I haven't got an S so don't know if it is good enough to see the keyboard to type or use the mouse.
In terms of setup, you don't need room scale vr so the setup is pretty easy (dump the 2 sensors in front of you and adjust till the software says its ok), the new rift-s doesn't use external sensors so should be even easier.
My recommendation would be save up and buy a rift-s, the difference is huge.
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janjansen
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by janjansen » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:37 am

DanP wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:31 am
Whats the best setup, multiple monitors (what is the maximum for Condor v. 2 - 3 or 4 monitors?) or virtual reality googles?
The price should be more or less the same.
Monitors have few advantages like better screen resolution, you are not blinded by the googles and see the real controls, and you can use the monitors for other purposes than gaming, too.
Googles offer the unlimited arc of view, but I am affraid the eye strain will be higher and the resolution is certainly lower. Never tried it before though.
So what do you think is the better solution?
I have 3 monitors, but usually fly with just 1. I get full 360 visibility using a headtracker. The other monitors are useful for xcsoar / teamspeak / obs / monitoring 3d printer / whatever and for productivity I couldnt live without them anymore.

Why dont I use all three in condor? Aside from xcsoar, 3 monitors works best when you can position them around you For that you need pretty large monitors ( I "only" have 3x 27 inches) and/or you need to be able to put them really close to you.Otherwise the perspective doesnt really make sense when you see both wing tips, each at a 45 degree angle from the nose. You do get used to it, but its still a bit awkward. You can solve it by zooming in more, then then the lack of vertical visibility is much more annoying than the gain in horzontal FOV. For flat panels, unless you can afford and have room for like 3x 40+ inch monitors that literally surround you, I think you are better off with single large 16:9 or at most 21:9 panel, optionally one smaller side panel, and a headtracker.

Im still holding off buying a VR set, for many of the reasons you already touched on. I have tried 'first generation' sets (vive and rift), and there is no doubt they are a lot more immersive, but I also doubt it would be comfortable in 3 hour flights and I do want higher resolution and a larger FoV. Ideally it should also offer eye tracking for foveated rendering so the hardware requirements for high FPS stay reasonable for other flight sims. For condor, this is not a big problem, but something like DCS that is a different story. Pimax 5/8k and especially the xtal vr set eliminate most of my objections, but affordability is a bit of a concern, especially with the xtal at 5000 euro :). It does show me whats coming though and I have no doubt a VR set is in my future, just not yet.

All in all, its a matter of preference. I you want immersion, VR is definitely the way to go and I think pimax is what you should be looking at today or perhaps the valve index, although that still has very limited FoV. If money is no objection, get an xtal :) I you want comfort/convenience and high resolution for a reasonable price, a single large 4K panel with a headtracker is still my choice.
Last edited by janjansen on Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

MrHerisson
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by MrHerisson » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:57 pm

blacksun wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 1:51 pm
XCSoar displays ok in VR, the Oculus software lets you view your desktop, then you can drag the XCSoar from your desktop (using a VR controller, like grabbing it with your hand) and put it anywhere you want to in the 3d space. You can size it, rotate it, etc. I have it as a knee board so when I look down at my lap, I can see XCSoar, its like flying with it on a tablet in the cockpit.

Did not know that. It sounds great.
I use a tablet for xcsoar and like it that way cause (I think) it releaves tasks on my laptop wich already runs: TS, Joystick program, Track IR, Virtual Serial emulator (for xcsoar), CoTaSa...and Condor and only gives about 40fps with about everything maxed out.
But I can definitely see myself with a "virtual lap tablet"

I think my first big spend will be....a new pc.

Try to get your hands on a throttle with lots of buttons on it so you can play HOTAS, I have Saitek X52 and I never have to touch the keyboard during a flight.

Also look for MC use in this forum or on the net, it will greatly help you with your speed and altitude management
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janjansen
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by janjansen » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:04 am

MrHerisson wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:57 pm
I use a tablet for xcsoar and like it that way cause (I think) it releaves tasks on my laptop wich already runs: TS, Joystick program, Track IR, Virtual Serial emulator (for xcsoar), CoTaSa...and Condor and only gives about 40fps with about everything maxed out.
Those background apps really shouldnt impact performance at all. Xcsoar even runs fine on e-readers and 20 year old windows CE PDAs and thats probably the most demanding one out the ones you list. And even if they where CPU intensive, just about any <10 year old cpu will have at least 4 cpu cores, of which condor only really uses 1. So you have plenty spare cpu cores to run background apps on. Condor itself is also fairly light on the CPU, so if you only get 40FPS, I suspect you have integrated or really poor graphics.

That said, even if you have multiple screens, there is one other very good reason to run xcsoar on a separate device: you can use its touch screen to interact with it, without having to exit condor. Running xcsoar on the same PC ive only managed to control zoom and browse through the different pages using autohotkey: viewtopic.php?t=18891 Anything else, like change Mccready or switching waypoints, I need to alt tab out of condor so I can use the mouse.

MrHerisson
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by MrHerisson » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:06 am

janjansen wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:04 am
Anything else, like change Mccready or switching waypoints, I need to alt tab out of condor so I can use the mouse.
I mostly let XCSoar run on auto. although I wished it would not go into final glide mode before I reached the last TP
whenever I get high enough XCSoar tells me that with MC of 0,3 or so I can reach finish line. Even though I might have a couple of TP before finish line.

I use MC auto settings so XCSoar tells me the value I need to put in Condor's MC (unless see above) and then let the cruise mode tell me how fast I should go.
But I also use it to zoom in further down the road to check that this nice ridge I am following does not end in a horseshoe or other traps.

And, yes, my laptop is over 10 years old....was quite nice when I bought it but the graphic card is now a bit outdated.
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h.kreso
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by h.kreso » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:41 am

blacksun wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 1:51 pm

XCSoar displays ok in VR, the Oculus software lets you view your desktop, then you can drag the XCSoar from your desktop (using a VR controller, like grabbing it with your hand) and put it anywhere you want to in the 3d space. You can size it, rotate it, etc. I have it as a knee board so when I look down at my lap, I can see XCSoar, its like flying with it on a tablet in the cockpit.
I do not understand, it does not work for me. How?
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pckormic
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:40 pm

Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by pckormic » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:48 pm

h.kreso wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:41 am
blacksun wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 1:51 pm

XCSoar displays ok in VR, the Oculus software lets you view your desktop, then you can drag the XCSoar from your desktop (using a VR controller, like grabbing it with your hand) and put it anywhere you want to in the 3d space. You can size it, rotate it, etc. I have it as a knee board so when I look down at my lap, I can see XCSoar, its like flying with it on a tablet in the cockpit.

I don´t understamd how can I do this. ¿Could you do a little turorial explaining how to do it? Please :D

And How you can control tje XCsoar program inside Condor VR?
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h.kreso
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Location: Croatia

Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by h.kreso » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:10 pm

We need someting like that for X-Plane
https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/f ... n-into-vr/
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blacksun
Posts: 154
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Re: multiple monitors vs. VR googles

Post by blacksun » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:26 pm

To use XCSoar in vr, start XCSoar on your PC as normal without VR and make sure it is running on your desktop whilst flying (you need a virtual serial cable), there are several posts about it in this forum. Once you know it works outside of VR on the same PC as condor you can then proceed.

This video shows the basics although it is a bit confusing as the guy is streaming as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40yRpZEEsz8

You need a third party app to send joystick button presses to the xcsoar window to control it. I havent got enough buttons for this so mostly use xcsoar in automatic mode. Make sure you have things like the tasks,plane,scenery setup before you start flying as these are easiest with the mouse and keyboard although you could probably use the touch controller maybe?
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