Teams or no teams ?

[Vertigo]

I'd like to see if you guys want teams or not in LLC 2007, and if so, what kind.

- No teams. Easiest for me

- Country based, like in LLC 2006. Pilots are automatically assigned a team (by their country selection).

- Free teams. Everyone can start a team (and become team captain). People are free to join to any team (requires approval of captain). Team Scoring is made so that ideally you'd have about 5 team members per flight. Could be fun, but the risk is the usual good pilots will team up.

- Free teams + assigned captains. Same as above, but to avoid the good ones ganging together, the top 10 (20?) of previous LLC will automatically be assigned as captains, so they can't join together.

In the last (two?) scenario('s), to promote team flying and encourage the aces to help and teach their fellow team members, I might even consider giving a small 'team bonus' to individual results, so you score (slightly) better if your team did well.

What do you think ?

[Frazzy]

I think it would be better for me to have no teams.

This is for the fact that i can't fly to often and it would be disapointing for my teammates if i drag there score down. (At least thats what i think will be the case in a team based LLC?)

Since i do want to fly tasks in the lowlands cup I'd like the idea that if i screw up its only for myself.

Greets Frans de Jong

[Vertigo]

This is for the fact that i can't fly to often and it would be disapointing for my teammates if i drag there score down. (At least thats what i think will be the case in a team based LLC?)

Not flying would have no impact on the team score. Team score per day would be :

(sum of team member scores) / (count of score + factor)

where only started races are counted. The factor would be around 1 or so, requiring 4-5 results to get a decent score..

[OXO]

Maybe you could restrict teams like they do in motorcycle speedway, so that you cannot fill your team with good pilots?

[TimKuijpers]

hmm,

I enjoyed some teamflights I made with Karsten and Wolfgang,
but I also had much fun when flying individual.
I also had some teamflights with SL and JJJ,
this just didn't work out that well, altough it was still fun.

Teamflying is a way of flying where all teammembers have a benefit of it, imho.
Else it isn't teamflying but more an education.
I do like to teach people some tricks of the condor flying,
but then again, I also want to try to become LLC champion.
These two things can't fit together.
Unless the whole team will be following the leader, but it wouldn't be fun for the rest of the team.

Communication is very important for teamflying, most important I think.
Therefor it will be difficult to fly together with ppl which both not speak good english.

And my advise for putting teams together by the organisation, don't do this.
Some ppl just don't fit, I know 2 ppl which are both dutch champions, but they can't fly together in a good way.
Therefor rewarding this will be a good idea, but imo impossible to execute.
Then again, if you are lucky having a good team you will have benefit of teamflying+the reward which will make the difference even bigger.

I think the country scoring was nice sometimes,
altough it was not completely representive.
Not every country sent in his best pilots, else the german team would definately have won.
So I think teams should be made by the pilots themself.

[mac]

My 2 cents:

* Agree with one of Vertigo's points: we should avoid having the best of the pilots being in the same team, if we want to have team competition to be fun (and fair). If I were a "top 20", I might however not be interested to team up with pilots whose skills are much below my level, unless it is fun for me to support others to develop their own skills.

* Agree with Frazzy: team scoring should prevent absence of pilots to penalise team mates. On the other hand, I like the idea that - if racing - pilots will be responsible not only for their own score but for the team one as well. I think that this would even contribute to make competitions more interesting, as conservative (realistic) flight would become more common rather than "kamikaze missions" style flights...

* Agree with Tim: a team must fly not as a flock of duckling after their mum duck. Moreover, each of us has his/her own personal objective for LLC 07 and we should be realistic and take this into consideration. I think however that a strategy for teams could be to have training sessions together and take the race itself more like a test of achieved skills. For this purpose I suggest VT run some simulation and finds out a scoring system where team score will be maximised if all team members do at their best, rather than if all of them do the same hi-average result. Example: in a race with 100 pilots, team score should be best with (2-16-35-50-73) than with (18-19-20-21-22)... or something down that line.

* Country cup could remain there there, they are fun, and as far as no awarding is linked to that, they don't hurt! I would be happy to have the possibility to register under UN or at least EU team, though.

[EA]

I don't really see why you should get extra points if your team made a good result... The team victory for that day and the points for team rankings seem to be a sufficient reward. And don't forget that flying in team is an advantage, too !

So, imho, teams if you want, but no influence on the individual results.

Seb

[JJJ]

i think just 2teams are same the same like Netherlands and Belgium is

Bene

that would be fun

[TimKuijpers]

I don't really see why you should get extra points if your team made a good result... The team victory for that day and the points for team rankings seem to be a sufficient reward. And don't forget that flying in team is an advantage, too !

So, imho, teams if you want, but no influence on the individual results.

Seb

That's true, but not if I am linked to somebody I don't know/I can't fly with/can't communicate with/who is much worse then me...
It will cost me points, therefor only in that option teams should be rewarded extra.
But imo this idea shouldn't be possecuted.

@Mac
Competition flying is about being fastest, it doesn't matter how you achieve that.
I can fly 50m behind Karsten then it won't be teamflying so it is ok in 'your' eyes.
But if I would tell him my thoughts it would be teamflying and therefor unfair because we will be too fast.

The only way teams can work will be when only the 2-3 best pilots of each country will fly in a small competition.
That way you will have good pilots flying together for their country.

But in LLC I just see it as a big copetition with only concurrents, also from my own country.
Therefor you should consider wether you want teamflying in your competition.
You can't force pilots, but in Holland teamflying is not allowed at the nationals.
In condor it can be much more fun so it is ok to fly in teams.
The only problem will be that it is hard for 1 single good pilot to beat a good pilot duo/trio.

[Vertigo]

enabling "free teams" wouldn't force anyone to join a team. IF you prefer to fly alone, you still can (obviously). But those that want to fly in team could see how they are doing compared to others.. might also allow the 'lesser' gods to fly for podium results.

[mach_one_man]

I just liked the countries teams - it meants us Brits could be proud of our score on the charts

Might have helped if I had actually flown a few more events - or perhaps not with my flying

But I do hope to get virtual soaring for next years LLC, or is it this years when it starts

Anyway great stuff there, I voted just for the common one...

[EA]

enabling "free teams" wouldn't force anyone to join a team. IF you prefer to fly alone, you still can (obviously). But those that want to fly in team could see how they are doing compared to others.. might also allow the 'lesser' gods to fly for podium results.

True, but the way I see it :

- if there are extra points for team members, then you have no chance to win if you're not in a (good) team
- if you can't choose your teammates, you just won't be able to fly together efficiently
- if you can choose your teammates, the better ones will be together, and win each and every task... but it will be almost the same if there are no teams

So, imho, do exactly the same way you did for previous LLC.

Seb

[kloudy]

In my experience of LLC06, I was a part of the US team but that was only "symbolic" as I never performed in a cooperative manner with anyone.
I just tried to get around the course.

Then the US flags were lined up, the scores tallied and the team standing was posted.

Whee! Big Fun!

I got to fly the best I could, my efforts didn't hinder or help anyone and I was part of the team.

I do not participate in LLC as much as others due to time constraints so I don't care how you ultimately arrange or score the event.

[JJJ]

but its unfair not all belgium piltos are that good

[Vertigo]

- if there are extra points for team members, then you have no chance to win if you're not in a (good) team

The bonus points was just an idea to give an incentive to good pilots to share their wisdom, but the bonus points would be symbolic at most. Not many (if any) seem interested though, so I'll probably just drop it. I thought it was cool though. It might make everyone's flight count a bit more, even if you're below 100th on the ranking.

- if you can't choose your teammates, you just won't be able to fly together efficiently
- if you can choose your teammates, the better ones will be together, and win each and every task... but it will be almost the same if there are no teams :wink

Which is why I propopsed to make the previous top 10 or 20 team captains. There are still 800 other pilots to choose from

Also, if you drop the bonus thing, pilots flying for a good ranking why would they flock together ? You'd get competing teams. Why would you help your direct rival(s) by joining their team ?

So, imho, do exactly the same way you did for previous LLC.

Most certainly not but the way the poll is going, at least the country cup will resemble LLC2006. I was no big fan of that, but ok..