Day 45

thermal · Post by **thermal** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:56 am

Many people here will have a huge surprise when they'll fly for real.

Probably true... generally speaking.
But, violent lifts of this strength are not impossible in RL mountainous areas. 15 or +16 m/s thermals... I don't know, only had that in wave once.

Weather model improvement? The developers are aware of that.

About path selection: you don't have to follow the others.
I never do, and always draw my own plan.
That's the trick, in order to win you have to do something different than the others.
You can either fly in front and have the others follow you (best option) or select a different path.
Problem is, that many of the others always seem to pick the path I would have liked to follow.
That's probably why I never win.

ultralajt · Post by **ultralajt** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:47 pm

I am l pleased with my result.
It was an easy task. If I knew somewhat that fact in advance, I will fly more courageously and faster

I flew with nice company of P.Hoewe, T.Foerster and two pilots that were way behind..sorry did not remember the names.
For us 3 it was a close race, so it was somehow easy to decise where to fly by observing what the competitor doing, and then join to "his thermal" or go by.
But it was funny also, when I said:" He, he, again we are close together!" and Hoewe return to me: "Yes! But I am 1000m higher!"

I like to fly knowing, that I am not alone on the track!

Flight to remember!

Mitja

Vertigo · Post by **Vertigo** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:52 pm

EA wrote: Well, of course, about the weather, I'm not blaming anybody, especially not the LLC team : I think Condor really needs a lot of improvements as far as the weather model is concerned, and so that such unrealistic thermals can be considered as an imperfection, a bug. The only thing I can regret is their choice of the regatta start. Tastes and colors...

Seb

I agree on the 15m/s thing; its turning this into an arcade game. I think its due to:
1) thermal strength variability set to "high".. (as well as "strong")
2) low ceiling means more thermals, but also stronger thermals in condor
3) moutains make this effect even "worse" with Cu's just 200m above moutain ridges, you get extremely strong thermals
4) condor adding up thermals

Combine these, and you get insane thermals; So.. dear task setters, please let's have some more tough challenges with realistic weather.. I'm gonna veto such 15m/s tasks for the few days left

As for the regatta start.. I don't mind too much from time to time, its different, but fun in its own way. The risk of colliding isn't also that bad (if it does happen, just press Q).

ultralajt · Post by **ultralajt** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:16 pm

About strong thermals...

I have a friend which hang glider (new brand Topless) simply explode in midair in central yunction when flying between Kobarid and Bovec (high above Polovnik ridge) when enter a strong thermal. He deployed reserve instantly and land safe on the rocky ridge. Rescue team need fat 4 hours to climb up to him. This thermal lift the glider nose vertical abruptly, regardles of pilots proper reaction to counteract. And when glider cross the thermall core, reaching other side (turbulence and downwind) sudden tuck over the nose and got negative load. Hang glider is tested to 2G negative. Glider was obviously loaded more than that and fail at crossbar junction in the middle.

I experience also a very strong thermal once at Nanos. (Flying with Hang glider) I was somwhere at bottom of the slope, just wondering where to land. Then suden a strong lift catch me. Vario went crazy (dont know the value...my vario can show only 5m/s) but audio has no limits and sing like crazy.
I hardly manage to maintain as much coordinated flight, struggling to control glider. After two circles in that lift, I reach the top of Nanos. The antena pole was our Turnpoint. At the time that I prepare camera for TP shot, I was already way above..and cloud almost eat me. I hardly manage to take a shot of antenna pole, then escape from that spot in direction Ajdovscina...

Another strong thermal I experience flying (sorry, but again with Hang Glider) from Ucka mountain situated on Istra, West from Reka (Croatia)
I was equipped with electronic vario (+/-5m/s) and ordinarry pneumatic vario from sailplane (+/- 10m/s)

Soon after start, I find a strong lift of 3 m/s which rapidly get stronger and stronger. First I was happy, but soon I became worried.
The lift continue to grow and became enormous. Acoustic of electric vario went beeping with unbelievable pitch, and classic sailplane vario needle rest on the end position (mechanically unable to show larger value larger than 10m/s)

The worst thing was, that I couldnt find the way out from that thermal. I was flying at max speed (when in normal circumstances my glider had -4m/s sinking)
So if in that position vario needle rest at +10m/s (so it could be >10m/s) the actual lift was 4+10=14 m/s or more !!!
I already imagine what cruel, harsh destiny wait for me...freezing in the clod..somwhere at 8000 meters altitude.

But luckily (craziest everytime get lucky!) I find an doowndraft of 5m/s, so I circling it way down to the ground.
I am lucky, so I can tell you that real life story of mine!

I believe that strong thermalls can occure in RL !!!!
We should not underestimate the Mother Nature incredible forces!!

But, regarding the strong lift in Condor...I believe there is noething wrong with program itself. Maybe the problem is on the Task planner, and its weather settings for that task. Maybe there are some settings, that are not so common..hence not so common experiences in the air, that wait for the pilots.

So much about strong thermals from my point of view.

By the way, behind the PC I am not afraid of any thermal, but in RL.. I believe that can make my underware brownish...

Regards!

Mitja

Cumulus7 · Post by **Cumulus7** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:28 pm

I have flown my fare share of flights in the Alps, and about the strongest lift i remember in a thermal was 6.6 integrated.

I dont doubt that there are stronger thermals, but for a multiplayer simulation any thermal stronger than 5 or 6m/s integrated should not exist IMHO. This makes for a much larger amount of luck neccessary to win the flight.
At least in the conditions we have now, when a 10m/s cloud looks the same as a 4m/s cloud.

just my 2cents obviously.

mac · Post by **mac** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:31 pm

GregNuspel wrote:I did forget to mention that 5 minutes before the start I realized I was flying the wrong plane. I looked at the list of pilots and thought who is flying the ASW then I realized it was me. Oops.

Greg, I am quite unexperienced when it comes to the choice of planes, I chose Ventus because I saw that most of the pilots in the high end of the ranks use it in similar conditions on - e.g. - speedbattle, but even if I stared longly to the polar chart in Condor I didn't notice that huge difference... would you mind to explain me why ASW was worse?

ultralajt · Post by **ultralajt** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:35 pm

Cumulus7 wrote:I have flown my fare share of flights in the Alps, and about the strongest lift i remember in a thermal was 6.6 integrated.
.....

You simply did not fly your monster thermal yet

But be beware of it

KarlKoch · Post by **KarlKoch** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:58 pm

The Discus has a maximum wingload of 50kg/m^2, while the ASW has only (:roll:) ~48kg/m^2. Therefore, the Discus is better in extremely good conditions, since it can fly faster than the ASW with the same rate of sink. However, if it comes to the other side (weak thermals, narrow ones), the ASW has an advantage because of the lower minimal wingload.

Slow_and_Low · Post by **Slow_and_Low** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:01 pm

About the unrealistic weather....

The task used standard Condor settings. Adding lift together is something that appears in Condor, and the task setter has no influence on that. When the cloudbase is low, there is more lift (not stronger!). When you find a boomer, you can only use it till cloudbase, which is not high. When the cloudbase is high, and you find a boomer, you win the task.
Also the +15m/s sounds absurd (and is absurd according to my humble RL experience), but does not give in these circumstances the big advantage that a +5 will do when the rest is +2.

When setting the cloudbase to high, the flight is becoming too much of a stop and go game, where there is not much of a strategy left anymore. Finding a boomer will certainly bring you on top of the rankings.
And with a high cloudbase, and a little bit of wind, the lift is very hard to find (at least for me, who was surprised to find out yesterday that in RL with 35km/h wind and cloudbase at 1800m, the lift was under the cloud and not in front of it...)

tinchote · Post by **tinchote** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:25 pm

ultralajt wrote:You simply did not fly your monster thermal yet
But be beware of it

Regarding your experience, I have two things to say: first, you cannot talk about the same rates of lift with a handglider than with a glider: just calculate the diameter of the circle you can make with each one. For a handglider it is possible to stay in the core of the thermal because of the much slower speed.

While I would never call SL's experience "humble" (lots of experience and success)

I completely agree that thermals values like +15 are totally unrealistic. I have never heard of anyone circling a thermal beyond +8.

That said, I have heard reports of gliders climbing +20 and even +40, but only on CuNim conditions. The Argentinean national height record was done in the 60s with a Blanik, and it is 12000 meters, over flatland. The pilot was lucky to survive, as he woke up on a spin at 1500 meters and somehow mangaged to land; the wingspan of the Blanik was two meters less than before takeoff

EA · Post by EA » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:00 pm

Slow_and_Low wrote:And with a high cloudbase, and a little bit of wind, the lift is very hard to find (at least for me, who was surprised to find out yesterday that in RL with 35km/h wind and cloudbase at 1800m, the lift was under the cloud and not in front of it...)

That's EXACTLY what I was explaining in another post... but nobody was listening.

About cloud height, I totaly agree with SL.

Of course, climbing in +15 for 500m when standard is +5 doesn't give the same advantage as climbing in +5 for 1000m when the rest is +2, but the latter is quite regular in real life, while you'll see the former once in your life, if you're lucky. So, yes, it had a low impact on results, but great impact on fun (at least for those who think that a realistic sim is fun).

By the way, when I say "once in your life if you're lucky", I must warn you that if your e-vario shows +15 while you're just below a huge dark cloud with lights flashing below, then you're probably not lucky, but you're likely to be seing a vario for the last time...

About thermals, there's something I still didn't understand, obviously, as I just can't find the +6 / +7 thermals JJJ's and others always get... Far easier for me irl !

Slow_and_Low · Post by **Slow_and_Low** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:33 pm

EA wrote: About thermals, there's something I still didn't understand, obviously, as I just can't find the +6 / +7 thermals JJJ's and others always get... Far easier for me irl !

It seems that the rule is: You can find them in rl OR in Condor. The choice is yours

mac · Post by **mac** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:58 am

KarlKoch wrote:The Discus has a maximum wingload of 50kg/m^2, while the ASW has only (:roll:) ~48kg/m^2. Therefore...

Enlightening, thank you!

tinchote · Post by **tinchote** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:24 am

Slow_and_Low wrote: It seems that the rule is: You can find them in rl OR in Condor. The choice is yours

Then I know what my choice is