Claus-Dieter Zink vs Lowlands

[JonRail]

Sorry if it's already been posted (don't have time to read all 5 pages of this thread), but this caught my eye:

http://www.glidingmagazine.com/FeatureA ... asp?id=215

I am not sure how much gliding activity there is in Bulgaria, or how many good photos would have been available, but the Bulgarian Post Office’s designer, Emilian Stankev, “borrowed” Claus-Dieter’s photo and used it as the design for one of their Bulgarian stamps. (See photo on the left.)

When asked, Claus-Dieter just said: "No they did not ask me; but if they did not have a good photo to use, I would gladly let them use mine. But they should have at least asked".

Looks like he was 'ripped off' to make and sell a limited edition stamp, which made money, and he took it no further.
I could have understood persuing that case as it's exactly what the laws are to protect.. someone else gaining from your hard work for free.

That makes it doubly odd that he'd persue such a harmless instance of potential copyright breach (I say that as I've not read the full details and couldn't work out if you had asked before hand or not).

My first thought was have you verified that the emails where not spoofed, but you've received snail mail as well.

edit: it seems some of the profits made went to some form of sports foundation.

[Vertigo]

Check http://lowlands.sytes.net for an update. Not good news.
I also added every email, fax and letter regarding this issue if anyone feels like spending a night to get a complete, unbiased view of what is going on.

[GregNuspel]

If I remember correctly you where contacted by someone claiming to be an agent for Mr. Zink. This 'agent' falsely led you to believe that all was going to be OK and therefore you continued using the images. I think a counter suit against this 'agent' for all damages may be warranted.

[ultralajt]

Sie haben etwas Unrechtes getan und nicht ich.
Also tragen Sie die Konseqenzen!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Mit freundlichen Grüßen man must be joking or what!?

[Adriaan]

What a pitty that man!

I have just printed out the frist post of this topic "Claus-Dieter Zink vs Lowlands, and put it next to the nice calender of Mr. Zink.

[roland]

I would contact a lawyer asap, the Zink-LLC case lookst pretty clear, altough I am not in any way burdened with any legal knowledge whatsoever .

Maybe a case against that Pfol guy would be justified but I would just pay Mr. Zink and sign the other document, exept for the liability up to 10.000, which is ridicules.

Fact is that you published the picture before you asked permission, and altough Mr. Zink's course of action strikes me as a bit of overkill, on the other hand, I have no doubt that unlawful usage of pictures is very common so that may explain his actions.

I read that it's not your intention to pay anything, I would suggest you meet with Mr. Zink personally, before continuing this escalating mud throwing campaign. 9 out of 10 times not much is left of the rigid stance of both parties after a "tete a tete".

I understand your position too, having the best of intentions and beeing called a thief and all, makes you angry and defensive.

Sadly "having the best of intentions" and "I didn't know" dont hold up in court.

I'm not trying to offend you, and I hope I have not done that now, this is just my take on the matter. The sugegstions you made to Mr. Zink (win - win etc) were exellent but that train has left the station because of the legal "work" that has been initiated and thus costs have been made.

regards,

Roland

[Vertigo]

I would contact a lawyer asap

We have already been in contact with several lawyers; I'm about to hire a German lawyer now, specialized in these issues, to represent LLC, but he is on holiday until next week.

, the Zink-LLC case lookst pretty clear, altough I am not in any way burdened with any legal knowledge whatsoever .

Its really not all that clear at all, but allow me not throw all my cards on the table now, as I'm sure Mr Kreimer is reading this too.

But, even *if* what we did ends up being proven illegal before a court, it remains to be seen just how much damages Mr Zink can prove.

Maybe a case against that Pfol guy would be justified but I would just pay Mr. Zink and sign the other document, exept for the liability up to 10.000, which is ridicules.

THe whole thing is ridiculous, but the terms are non negotionable. As for Mr Pfohl's involvement, we shall see.

I read that it's not your intention to pay anything

Where did you read that ? Its not my intention to blindly accept the charges and proposed remedial.

, I would suggest you meet with Mr. Zink personally, before continuing this escalating mud throwing campaign. 9 out of 10 times not much is left of the rigid stance of both parties after a "tete a tete".

Not likely to happen. First, I don't speak German and he doesn't speak english well, if at all. Seconldy, he won't even talk to me on the phone or per email, I doubt he'd talk in person. Third, its too far.

[roland]

Its really not all that clear at all, but allow me not throw all my cards on the table now, as I'm sure Mr Kreimer is reading this too.

Im sure I won't be called upon as an expert witness hehe.

Good luck with whatever course of action you desire,

Roland

[borisbr.]

I've read all the correspondence that has taken place, and I'm amazed how oblivious the CDZ party is to all the offers you've made.

as I'm sure Mr Kreimer is reading this too.

Might it be a smart thing to close this thread? Even if it is to prevent insulting remarks (which might have additional consequences) being made at the adress of CDZ or Mr. Kreimer? You could, after all, keep us updated through the lowlands site.

Take care and good luck,

Boris

[Slow_and_Low]

We rather leave this thread open. We have nothing to hide. As soon as we discovered that we've done something not completely according the rules we have tried to find a solution. We will keep doing so and ask your assistance for that.
By the way, Patrick Kreimer (the lawyer) is also a gliderpilot flying at Dinslaken Schwarzer Heide (as I'm informed well). I hope that this is good news and that Gliderpilots between each other can find a solution. One could say that it is business and therefore irrelevant, but there is no business at all in the LLC and we are only spending a lot of time (and now also money) for the joy of all and the promotion of Soaring.
I do believe that the gliderpilot in Patrick Kreimer sees this as well and we can still find a peacefull solution.
In my worst nightmares I can not dream that the soaring community is like this. Trying to bring people to court instead of finding a solution between each other.
So I'm still positive that we will find a proper solution.

[ultralajt]

My simple mind cant realise what damage or loss can be done to one person which graphics showed on his webpage is used by someone else on the some other Internet place. And how that damage can be evaluate in EURos...on base of what calculation? Am I stupid, naive, hillbilly or what?

Let use just for the excersice... I have a webpage where are many graphics. They are there for the visitors to see them. Othervise I wont put them there. I dont recieve any goods or money, for that (visitors at my webpage) regardles if my graphics see no one or 100 persons a day.
I am just a kind of "show off"..want to share my work with wide comunity.
If someone "use" (or steel) one of my graphic and put somwhere else...what is the result? Where is now the damage that I really feel...I feel noething neather my wallet...

Mitja

[swt]

My simple mind cant realise what damage or loss can be done to one person which graphics showed on his webpage is used by someone else on the some other Internet place.

Its simple - placing photos on web des not mean author wants You to use them unless he states it explicitly ...

[swt]

Mitja, there could be different kind of damage as I see it, and it can be done even if no financial aspect is involved.

Worst case (and in that case is allright actions like CDZ took) is, when someone takes Your work (photos) to make profit - he sels either directly them, or modifies them and sells. Damage is clear here, and can be valuated in money. (This is not LLC case.)

Another type of damage is using Your work in manner You wouldnt like and will not approve ... extreme example - someone tooks phtot of Your girlfriend and monts it using photoshop on some porno photos and hangs them ovre rinternet ...
Also maybe You put Your photos on web only for viewing, and You do not want ppl take them. You want them to came to Your website if they want to see them ...
Thats why You have to ask for permission to use others work.

I hope You see now that photos are property of Yours, and noone may do anything else except what You allow them to do. By putting photos on web You give implicit permission for ppl to wiew them, but in fact they may not even download them (may vary with contry law), not modify them, and sure not make any profit from them any way - except if they get permission from You to do so.

Damage done to CDZ by LLC banner was only intelectual damage violating his rghts in my eyes. I think there cannot be any sensible proof of actual financial loss on CDZ side (he certainly des not sell less calendar because of small banner) and there is not financial gain on LLC side (they do not get any financial gain, and LLC is not popular because of banner ...).

That is what is all this about. Vertigo violated (unknowingly) CDZ rights - there is no doubt. When he become aware of that he took actions to resolve situation in resonable manner, and CDZ reaction is (in our eyes) out of proportion.


Note: I am no lawyer and had little knowledge of laws so all abowe may be inaccurate but I feel it that way.

[Topsurfi]

Hello Vertigo,

some months ago I had to pay some money to a company because I used a small map on my webpage how to find my house. They wanted 900 Euro, I paid 450 to settle the thing. I did NOT pay the lawyer charges of the "kostenpflichtige Unterlassungserklärung" and only signed the part where I declared not to use the images again.
I put some time into this to find out if I had to pay or not and about copy rights etc.
The bad news for you is that you indeed may have violated the copyright of Zink. But if it comes to court, most judges don't accept these "kostenpflichtige Abmahnung" since it is to often misused as a money making machine for lawyers.
So you will most likley not have to pay the costs for the lawyer of Mr. Zink because the court may argue, that Mr. Zink should have first contacted you to ask you to pay for the image instead of immediatly contacting a lawyer. Contacting a lawyer and creating costs for you was in this case unnecessairy and thus you don't need to pay it.

If it comes to court, it will be also a loser for Mr. Zink because he will probably get the copyright money from you but will have to pay his lawyer expenses. So in the end, he will gain nothing.
By the way unlike you think Mr. Zink does not have to proove that you caused him any damage but he has the right to ask a reasonable amount for the pictures. The question is what is reasonable and every judge will find different numbers here.

Just my 2 cents,

Philipp

[WalterSt]

Very unfortunate. The only way I can help is to donate and support you guys from LLC. Someone who knows CDZ personally should talk to him as a friend. Can we not contact such a person as a mediator? This has gone far too far already.