Claus-Dieter Zink vs Lowlands

Vertigo · Post by **Vertigo** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:02 am

Claus-Dieter Zink vs Lowlands

Weâ€™ve kept this quiet for a while, trying to resolve this issue in a gentlemenâ€™s way, but we have failed, and therefore have no other choice but go public with this.

Three of our young German friends, Thomas, Bjorn and Karsten have recently received a letter from a lawyer with legal threats, a ca â‚¬1.400 invoice for copyright infringement and legal expenses, and a document to sign declaring their liability for upwards of â‚¬10.000 (!). It concerns the images we previously used in the LLC banner, which where made by Claus-Dieter Zink, a well known glider photographer.

Back in November, when someone pointed out to us these images that I found using Google, where most likely the work of CDZ, we ourselves contacted Mr Zink, asking permission to maintain the images and offer him credits and a link to his glider photography and calendar business in return; we also requested if he wasn't interested in sponsoring the event.

Mr Zink did not reply to this in any way, not by giving permission or simply requesting them to be removed, not even by sending us a simple invoice for using the images, but instead apparently found it more appropriate to immediately take legal action. Not against the main organiser and webmaster (me, Vertigo) who made the initial requests and is the sole responsible, but against 3 young German people (one of them even underage) who do not bare any responsibility for the design of the website.

These guys only â€œcrimeâ€

cruiser · Post by **cruiser** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:28 am

I have already put up a request to Slovenian national gliding forum if anyone knows this guy and if they are able to help in any way.

http://www.jlet.olimp.si/forum/messages ... 1135852047

sinker · Post by **sinker** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:22 pm

Vertigo - it's horrible that you guys have have done all this work and then had this stress on top.

Please make this post an announcement or at least sticky - until the matter is resolved.

MY · Post by MY » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:37 pm

AMAZING!

Donation made. Goes without saying that no calender of his will make his way into my home. Pitty really as I might have, had he gone about this another way. Think about the amount of potential customers he could have had if he had gone into a cooperation with the Lowlands team instead!

Hopefully this won't put any breaks on you continued great support of the Condor community!

BR

Atle

GregNuspel · Post by **GregNuspel** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:37 pm

We should try and gather a list of distributors for his photographic work and start a letter writing campaign requesting them to stop distributing his work. A lawyer should look over the letter to ensure it is only a polite request that will not leave a person liable, this is a necessary precaution as he has all ready shown what type of person he is.

We should also look at contacting all the soaring forums and news groups with this. I hope that with public pressure he will change his mind.

thermal · Post by **thermal** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:41 pm

I don't believe this. . .

This would probably be the most stupid action an aviation calender seller can take. Trying to intimidate and rob their best potential customer base!
Outrageous!

I even doubt that CDZ himself has anything to do with this. It may well be an independent action from the publisher.
I also doubt that if they take this to court, they have a leg to stand on. But I'm not a lawyer.

Bizarre coincidence, I was going to order the calender this weekend.

Now I won't.
Instead I will donate the amount via the link that Vertigo supplied.

Courage guys!

Cadfael · Post by **Cadfael** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:57 pm

I do not believe, that Mr.Zink could be sucessful at law court in this case - this is not commercial abuse of author rights. I sent 50 euros for support of our friends by paypal because I do not know another way how to help at this moment... But I am sure we will find a way how to solve it.

swt · Post by **swt** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:03 pm

Vertigo, just one note - You set up an donation before any actual pay orders are issued ... what will You do with money collected if case will be settled without need to pay? Personally, I will wait with any donation until needed.

As comment to whole thing ... I concur to thermal opinion that all this are actions of either publishers and/or lawyers of Mr. Zink, because I doubt if CDZ himself will know the case - how and what for images were used - he will behave this way.

My opinion about case - only liable person is Vertigo, as he (and only he) is pesponsible for creating and publishing of that cursed banner. So I think (and hope) our German friends are on safe side if they resist threathening by lawyers. LLC team is not anything official ( = it is nonexistent in terms of law ) so liability can be only on particular persons and they had nothing with banner.

GregNuspell - IMHO do not do this until You sure CDZ knows all of this.

Tomcat84 · Post by **Tomcat84** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:24 pm

Well i must say i was shocked by this outrageous news. When i saw the new banner a little while ago i figured he hadnt given permission and that was that. Now i read of this ridiculous claim. Wether or not it was his own initiative or the publisher's, I feel he deserves to hear about it. So i could not resist sending my thoughts his way. I have tried to be polite yet frank. this is my mail:

Dear Mr. Zink,

I just learned about your conflict with the organisers and German participants of the LowLands Cup online race for Condor Soaring Simulator. These people are hard working individuals who work voluntarily on a non profit basis to create a wonderful online competition, with glider pilots from all over the world participating, in their own free time, asking no reward.

I was therefore appalled to read today about legal action against three German participants, because of an issue with a banner that featured your work. While I understand that you do not want unauthorised usage of your work, the fact that this was not intentional, and that it was tried to resolve this matter in a friendly manner, only to be answered with a financial claim out of the blue, strikes me as overly harsh.

Added to that is the fact that in my experience in the glider world sofar, it has always struck me that the people are almost always helpful, kind, with a still spcial kind of, one could say, chivalry, intact. Do we not all share the same passion, soaring? We are not a great sport, numberwise, such as football or tennis, and that should make us all a more tight nit community, because we all depend on each other to carry out our flights. Your claim certainly shatters this image, and it makes me rather sad.

Working with these guys, perhaps as a sponsor with some free publicity, undoubtedly would have provided you with additional calendar sales. Last year I bought a calendar for 2005 that was made by the Dutch gliding association, I was considering buying a German one (most likely yours) for 2006, because the Dutch aren't making one again. Suffice to say I will NOT be placing an order with you after this slap in the face of the Low Lands Cup, an initiative which I am very supportive of.

I hope you will reconsider your claim against these hardworking volunteers. Should you do so, I will also reconsider my decision not to buy your calendar this year, or ever again.

As a last disclaimer, I should state that this entire mail represents only my own opinions, and is not in any way meant to represent the thoughts or opinions of the Low Lands Cup organisers, Condor developers, my gliding club or any other participants. It is my opinion and mine alone.

Kind regards,

Boris Metz
the Netherlands

I am curious if i will get a response.

Note: i can understand if he will say that he HAS to take action because otherwise he loses the rights to his work and they become public domain, but then make it so that Vertigo is forced to buy 5 calendars from him, to be spread under the winners, or something like that as punishment, and not this ridiculous amount of 10 thousand euros.

And i agree that he could be shooting himself in the foot. I will probably post on Dutch national forum + my own club's later today / once i know more.

Cadfael · Post by **Cadfael** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:25 pm

swt wrote:Vertigo, just one note - You set up an donation before any actual pay orders are issued ... what will You do with money collected if case will be settled without need to pay?

Vertigo and German colleagues will need some of money the least for consulting this cause with lawyers, so I am not afraid, that Vertigo will have a lot of free money from this, I am more afraid, that he will have lot of costs with it - it is repulsive thing - anybody is trying bring a non-profit fun for others and result is only problems for him.

But I do not criticise you, SWT, it is not only about money, I am sure we all will try find a way how to help... You have more contact in aeroclub in CZ than I, for example, I only do not know how to help by another way now and I want help him.. We must declare a solidarity with our friends whatever way...

Vertigo · Post by **Vertigo** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:28 pm

A few short replies:

1) Mr Zink *is* fully aware of this issue (and has been since the start), and is fully backing the lawyer in this. I did finally get one reply yesterday to my very last attempt to solve this in a friendly way, and it basically said "you stole, you will face the consequences". I'll post all relevant mails, faxes and letters later, but many of them are in German.

2) About the donations. As I stated, any "surplus" will simply be refunded. But a friendly resolution of this matter is really no longer to be expected, its not like we havent tried that yet. And lawyers cost money too.

3) About the liability of our German friends; this lawyer claims they are part of a "GbR", or sort of de facto organisation, and according to him, any member of this organisation can personally be held liable for any infringements commited by the organisation. Wether or not LLC can be considered such a GbR, and wether these people are part of them, and therefore, personally liable, may have to be determined by court.

swt · Post by **swt** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:34 pm

Ehm, now it loks that I was meant to accuse Vertigo about wanting money for himself ... not a second !!! It was meant just to think that he does not know so far if it is just threat or if actually any money will be needed. Of course if they spent already any money ... I did not thought that way ...

And of course if any money left I am all for "take it all Vertigo for all You done".

I am not rich man but I have enough to be able to support this case and/or LLC - it was not about not-willing to send some ...

You made me feel myself filthy, Cadfael ...

sinker · Post by **sinker** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:35 pm

Tomcat/Boris letter is extremely well put. I also sent mail (deliberately doesn't contain word "condor" in the hope of being read)

Claus-Dieter Zink

I am saddened that you choose to take legal action against 3 young German games players rather than respond to a request to accept payment and/or services for the use of your images in an on-line gliding simulation competition. These young people are part of an international collaboration of unpaid volunteers working hard to build an innovative (and non-profit making) competition for gliding simulator pilots (the majority of whom are of real-life pilots). Any copyright violation should be considered as accidental - please re-consider the offer of re-imbursement for the use of your images. Note that any money that you, your publishers or your lawyers receive will be raised from the community of glider piots (many European) who will may well discourage others from buying your work if you continue with this action.

Therefore this aggressive action can only damage your reputation.

I can only hope that you :

* have been badly advised in this matter
* re-consider your legal action
* accept reasonable payment for the use of your images.

This is my own opinion - I represent no-one else.

Donation follows

GregNuspel · Post by **GregNuspel** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:40 pm

MY wrote:Think about the amount of potential customers he could have had if he had gone into a cooperation with the Lowlands team instead!

Whether it is his publisher or himself that is behind this, I have to agree that it was a stupid move. It would be easy to see a large number of us buying his work if a link to a source of his work was provided.

I do think he would have a difficult time getting any money from the three people listed in a court of law since they were not responsible for publishing his work. I would expect that in a German court of law he would have to prove that they are the publishers of the website or provided the images as their own to the webmaster. They would have to be guilty of an offence of the copyright in order for the court to rule against them. I do not know German law but I hope that they would be in the position to counter sue for false allegations.

Cadfael · Post by **Cadfael** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:43 pm

swt wrote:You made me feel myself filthy, Cadfael ...

I am very sorry about it, it was not my target, I am only too silly for english and I could not explain exactly what I mean. I want to say, that not everybody of us has the same possibility - students of course could not send a money, non flying staff as I could not inform lot of other aeroclub pilots for boycot mr.Zink calednar atc - so I wanted only to say, that we all could find how to help with our individual possibilities

In czech: opravdu se moc omlouvÃ¡m a velmi mě to mrzÃ, ale skutečně jsem nechtěl, abys vypadal hloupě, jÃ¡ jsem prostě na angličtinu fakt nemoÅ¾nÃ½...