First Impressions from Real Life ASK-21 Pilot

[monsterzero_jr]

Very, very, VERY good. I think this sim is programmed to the limit in terms of what you can experience in a flight sim. I descended below the tow plane and realized a realistic prop wash was present too. Very impressive.

The flight physics feel fine. The response from the aircraft feels a bit exaggerated but then, my little joystick and the computer screen are miniaturized versions of the real thing. The real control stick requires more force to move, I mean enough force on your arm to feel it in the deltoid muscle in the shoulder. Because my computer joystick is so effortless to move and the view is the tiny monitor in front of me, I guess my control inputs are exaggerated.

A couple of complains:

When you are taking off on tow in a real glider the tension of the tow line will not allow you to drift so far to the left or right of the tow plane. I mean you could do it if you wanted to create an accident, but generally the tension of the tow line keeps you nicely aligned behind the tow's tail. The main concern during the takeoff roll is keeping the wings level. Once the pair is airborne, the drifting of the glider to either left or right does become an issue, but generally not during the ground roll.

Second issue: the AI tow pilot is much more erratic, to the point of being somewhat dangerous, than a real life tow pilot. Our tow pilots in the club are very gentle when changing direction and you can always keep up with them, even if the weather is a bit bumpy. I'm having some problems matching the turns of the tow in Condor, problems I never had in real life even when I was a completely green pilot.

The irony of flight sims is that sometimes they are harder to fly than the real thing (LOL). I've read comments from real Air Force F-16 pilots who said the real fighter jet is a lot easier to fly than the Falcon Simulator from Microprose. Also, they said the real life avionics and electronics, which are classified to some extent, are easier to operate and understand than the mind-boggling systems they programmed into the commercial sim.

[kristoffer]

Hello, and welcome to the Online Condor Community! It's always nice to hear comperisons and reviews of Condor from real pilots.
What you have written above is pretty much what the rest of the community have excperienced too. Regarding the towing in
Condor, I think the towline is simulated to be some shorter(25m?/30m?) than we normally use in real.(around 40m)

Regarding the joystick and how the controls feels compared to real gliders, I think one can, with some work, make it
close to perfect! If you have a bad joystick and you don't tweak your software settings, it is very likely to feel unrealistick.
If you have a good joystick and you work around the settings, the controls can get very realistick too. I don't think that the
software or the pressure on the controls are the challenge to get it realistick. I think that the biggest challenge to get the
control feeling we have in real life adapted to the sim, is that the joystick we can buy on the market today have a too small
radius from the center of the stick till full deflection. In another way: The base for the stick is too small. The deflections of
the joystick is scaled down compared to real. Thats why, at least from my point of wiev, that you can tweak the settings
to make it really good, but because of the wrong scale/Measurments you can't get it perfect. Ofcourse there are plenty of
discussions on this and similar topics all over the forum. Just my thougts.

Remember that the best part of this simulator is the multiplayer part! Feel welcome to join the multiplayer race sessions.
That's were one can really learn, and have fun! Since Condor is made with a focus on racing, that's is were you can really
clearly see the best potential of this simulator!
Happy flights!

Kristoffer D. Samuelsen

[Serginho]

Nice review.
I wonder how happy would be monsterzero if he had a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 and could feel Condor in his hands, specially by feeling the buffeting when stalling and the way the stick forces changes according to the speed you fly.

Too bad they stoped the production years ago. This is by far the best stick. I sadly wonder if there will be life for me in Condor, after my old joystick dies. This happened before... when my first Sidewinder 1 died (back to around 2003) i simply stoped playing flight sims, because no other stick on the market ever felt so right as the Sidewinder, specially the FFB.

Its funny that the first and ONLY thing Microsoft did right, had its production stoped.


Welcome monsterzero. And as Kris said, try racing online... you will get hooked.

[Geoff L]

Interesting comments from K21 pilot on aerotows. Here's some more from another K21 pilot. I suspect from other comments in the Forum that the glider in the Flight School 'aerotow launching' tab is for some odd reason just more difficult to control. I've certainly found that, in a way that doesn't apply to other parts of the Flight School section, or elsewhere in Condor. The glider in the aerotow lessons seems to over-react to control inputs and almost to fly erratically. It is possible to control, but requires very quick reaction times and precise stick movements, which for training purposes I suppose is no bad thing, but it does takes a lot of getting used to.

Last week I did a week's gliding course in K21s at my local gliding club (brilliant!), all winch launches. My launching and thermalling are coming on fairly well (and I reckon a lot of that is thanks to Condor, which is superb as a training aid). But my circuit planning and execution needs practice, so I came back to the Condor /Flight School/traffic pattern and landing tab, to get some more practice in. I don't know what others think, but 3 points:

1) it would be better if the glider in the Condor sim started further back along the downwind leg. We were taught last week to be at 700' - 800' at the High Key area, and trimming the K21 to 55 knots on the downwind leg (assuming no strong headwind on landing). In Condor, the glider starts part way along the downwind leg, so you don't get to identify a High Key area or to practise the whole landing circuit.

2) In 'View Lesson', the text says 'start 300 - 500 yards from the landing area' [i.e. parallel to it] but in fact it the glider seems closer in than this to the runway. This makes doing the base leg a bit of a scramble, especially in view of 3) below.

3) in RL last week at the gliding club, our club instructors (and I think now all gliding clubs) have moved away from teaching the conventional square landing pattern that is shown in some gliding training books and taught in Condor. You do a 45 degree turn at or shortly after passing your Low Key point (as the 'Reference Point' for landing is passing behind the glider's wing which brings the Reference Point into sight again). This is repeated - again as the Reference Point for landing is passing behind the glider's wing - you do a second 45 degree turn to take you on to base leg. On base leg, you can lose some height if necessary. You then do the final turn at minimum 300', up to 400', to take you onto the Approach and roundout.

Adjustment of this part of the Condor program would in my view make practising easier and more realistic. I understand that what we were taught last week, as set out above, is taken from the British Gliding Association's Instructor's Handbook. Don't get me wrong, I think Condor is superb and told my instructors this! I know Condor is mainly set up for competitions, but there must be lots of RL glider pilots who also use it for training purposes. Also, a lesser point - having the training glider in the Flight School part of Condor as an ASK21, which is a widely user training glider in the clubs, would be the icing on the cake!

Any comments, including from the moderators?

All the best,

[SteveK]

When you are taking off on tow in a real glider the tension of the tow line will not allow you to drift so far to the left or right of the tow plane. I mean you could do it if you wanted to create an accident, but generally the tension of the tow line keeps you nicely aligned behind the tow's tail.

Bear in mind that your K21 has the aerotow hook near the nose. That is what is pulling the nose in line.

Not all gliders have aerotow hooks in or near the nose. The Condor gliders use the winch hook for aerotowing, as do many RL gliders. This arrangement does not pull the glider straight (and has other extremely errm.... unpleasant effects if you get it wrong!)

Last week I did a week's gliding course in K21s at my local gliding club (brilliant!), all winch launches. My launching and thermalling are coming on fairly well (and I reckon a lot of that is thanks to Condor, which is superb as a training aid). But my circuit planning and execution needs practice

I'd be cautious about using Condor for circuit training. I find it difficult to fly a "identical to RL" circuit in Condor (and that's with ten years RL experience). Additionally I do not think that Condor handles wind gradient well or possibly at all - making the later stages of approach a lot easier, and possibly lulling you into a false sense of security in RL.

In the UK, whilst the heights you quoted are recommended for the various stages of the circuit, you'll need to learn to plan and fly the circuit by sight alone (keeping 'the picture' right as you progress around the circuit). Heights as read from the altimeter are irrelevant as if you need to land in a field, you will not know how the elevation of that field relates to your altimeter. Of course the real heights/angles to your chosen reference point - "the Pictures" from the judgement you are taught should mean that wherever you land you can fly a proper and safe circuit to get there. Indeed in some of your later training the altimeter will be obscured to force you to fly to "the picture". I'd say practising circuits in Condor particularly whilst learning, you could be teaching yourself a slightly wrong picture. However I'm not an instructor - so I might suggest that you seek your RL instructor's advice on whether to practice in this way.

That said a really useful tool for flying circuits in Condor is a head tracking device (TrackIR or the free track devices mentioned elsewhere in this forum). I'm not sure if they use the "diagonal leg" (the angled leg between downwind and base) on the continent, but one of the advantages of the diagonal leg is that is gives you a better view of the landing area and gives to more opportunities to judge and if necessary correct "the picture". It's practically impossible to fly a decent circuit (judged in a similar way to RL) on Condor without one...

I hope that you are able to continue your training beyond your recent course - keep up regular RL training and before you know it you'll be solo.

Safe flying,
SteveK

[Geoff L]

Steve

Thanks for your comments. The instructors made the same point that you have – you have to get used to flying the circuit by sight, especially if you want to aim for cross countries later, which I do. However, in the early days, you’ve got to do things at the right height, especially in RL, so that you 'learn the picture right' in the first place. None of the instructors I’ve flown with so far is familiar with Condor, so I can’t take advice from them on this, so will take seriously your words of caution on being tempted to rely too much on Condor for this particular aspect of flying training/practice. Another difficulty with Condor for flying circuits that I’ve found is the view-panning that you have to do quickly, which isn’t so easy as sat in a cockpit and swivelling your head, and this is more of a factor in high workload situations like before and during the turns after completing the downwind leg. It's difficult to get the view right - but that might just be me.

That said, I still feel that the Condor circuit isn’t set up quite right, i.e. downwind leg too short and too close to the runway.

I’ve not come across the thing you've mentioned, a ‘head tracking device’, never even heard of it, so I’ll have to look into this next week (I’m off to Wiltshire for the weekend). Yes, I'm aiming to get to the club at least once a week, but the course was a superb way of getting in a large number of flights in a short space of time. The DSGC blog for last week shows the end of course photo and lists some achievements, if it's of any interest. Two excellent instructors we had, too.

All the best,

[SteveK]

....Another difficulty with Condor for flying circuits that I’ve found is the view-panning that you have to do quickly, which isn’t so easy as sat in a cockpit and swivelling your head, and this is more of a factor in high workload situations like before and during the turns after completing the downwind leg. It's difficult to get the view right - but that might just be me.
....
I’ve not come across the thing you've mentioned, a ‘head tracking device’...

Sorry, I should have explained further. TrackIR and other similar devices track the movement of your head and pan the view to follow it. Although the ratio of head movement to pan is different than in RL, you get used to it very quickly, and it allows you to look around fairly naturally - certainly for normal lookout. It gets around the problem you have highlighted fantastically.

That said, I still feel that the Condor circuit isn’t set up quite right, i.e. downwind leg too short and too close to the runway.

I can't really comment on the on-line lessons - I could already fly when I came to Condor so hardly looked at them. But as it is teaching a square circuit, it can't really be much use for a UK pilot. You could set up your own training task - airstart to 1100'-ish then fly out to high key and fly a circuit...

[Geoff L]

Steve

Thanks for the explanation on TrackIR – Google sent me to the manufacturer’s demo, and that with the forum incl your earlier comments indicates what a useful bit of kit it is. I think eBay may be my next port of call. Point taken on setting up a customised landing circuit in Condor – I did this a while back, long before I did the course, with the aim of trying to set up a landing practice with a crosswind. I’ll revisit that option. Saw half a dozen gliders over Wilts yesterday, incl what looked like an ASH 25, without to my knowledge going near an airfield. A fine day for it.

All the best,